Mason Holgate

[Jozzy]

Seemed strange we were going for Byram when we already have Holgate on the books

You'd then have Browning, Holgate and Byram all in the queue behind Coleman at right back

I mean, if we needed someone short term who could do a job back there, why not just get a journeyman on a temp deal for 2-3 months? Why spend 5 million smackers on a new player when we've already got two young players on the books who can play that position?

Holgate & Browning are both natural CB's same as Pennington.

I'm not to sure what Kenny's best position is, a bit of a utility.

I think we should send Holgate out on loan if he's not seen as an RB because he's behind to many players for CB. (It might not be a case of him being able to play there the club may just feel he's up to first team football at this stage.)

 

[blueloon]

Holgate & Browning are both natural CB's same as Pennington.

I'm not to sure what Kenny's best position is, a bit of a utility.

The clues are in how Martinez , who sees these guys everyday in training, operates. He likes to try out his young CHs at full back where possible (Galloway) and while cautious he's not afraid to pitch them in at FB if he thinks they are ready (Browning v Liverpool). Holgate's exposure to the 1st team squad was brief , 2 bench places ?, with no appearances. Pennington has played at RB 1/2 game and CH half a game both in cup ties, so now he's back from injury it suggests he's ahead of Holgate but not high enough up to make the squad for PL games yet. Conclusion : if Martinez deemed Holgate was ready he'd be in the squad. The harsh reality for Holgate is that if you make a few mistakes at u 21 level then you're not going to be rushed into playing PL level in a team leaking goals, so still developing.

As for Kenny, while he's done really well playing CH and wing back at 18 that's just part of his development, he lacks the height to be a CH and is destined I think to be a RB. He has the skill set , and it may be his physicality that decides how far he goes.

 

[BlueToff]

Yep. Both broke into the Barnsley team at RB.

We have more than enough cover (good cover and emergency cover) at RB. I was amazed RM was pursuing Byram.

Best all round that it fell through, imo.

I think we did it now to try and avoid a scramble for him in the summer. It was a move that had little risk as he definitely has potential, and would have been a natural replacement for Coleman if he got a really bad injury or he did eventually get sold.

Was a smart move and the right move, but the player wanted immediate playing time.

Simple as that.

 

[BlueToff]

The clues are in how Martinez , who sees these guys everyday in training, operates. He likes to try out his young CHs at full back where possible (Galloway) and while cautious he's not afraid to pitch them in at FB if he thinks they are ready (Browning v Liverpool). Holgate's exposure to the 1st team squad was brief , 2 bench places ?, with no appearances. Pennington has played at RB 1/2 game and CH half a game both in cup ties, so now he's back from injury it suggests he's ahead of Holgate but not high enough up to make the squad for PL games yet. Conclusion : if Martinez deemed Holgate was ready he'd be in the squad. The harsh reality for Holgate is that if you make a few mistakes at u 21 level then you're not going to be rushed into playing PL level in a team leaking goals, so still developing.

As for Kenny, while he's done really well playing CH and wing back at 18 that's just part of his development, he lacks the height to be a CH and is destined I think to be a RB. He has the skill set , and it may be his physicality that decides how far he goes.

Holgate was injured for the FA Cup game or would have been in the squad.

 

[catcherintherye]

Weve got £50mil addtional in tv revenues and a lot of deadwood either being sold or out of contract in the summer.

Oviedo is out of contract in summer and made of balsa wood. Stones is a centre back...so not ideal cover for coleman let alone going to compete with him for RB position.

We need competition all over the pitch and this is one area where we are lacking as well as GK,LW and CF positions....they are all important.

Byram at 22 could be seen to habe the potential to compete with coleman and get games.

As for Holgate, i think he, pennington and also kenny have an opportunity to come in at RB as cover fr coleman BUT i understand that @catcherintherye and @blueloon feel that none of them are ready to step up yet.

What if they all fail to make the grade? What if they need another 2 seasons?

we could have signed byram and kept him 2 seasons to allow these guys out on loan and if good enough then sold byram OR if byram was that good sold coleman.

I also think holgate will need a season long loan next summer to get some experience as he has a fair few players in front of him at CB.

I think the answer to @davek question lies in pragmatism. Martinez is far more pragmatic than Moyes was and far closer to Kendall/Royle. I think he saw Byram available at a knockdown price and thought he would be a good addition. At the price quoted it would be a great buy. I think that's really how Martinez sees the January window, not an ideal time to do business but potential a good chance to pick up solid players at a knockdown price. If you look at McGeady and then Lennon both fit that bill. In all honesty we didn't "need" either of them bit given the silly money that's being thrown about they represented good value.

I think people misunderstand Martinez when he talks about the January window. he doesn't mean we won't sign anyone, but rather he won't do anything fundamental then. The window we signed Mcgeady we lost Jelavic and Heitinga, which he was happy to put towards Lukaku in the summer. He sees major transfer bits to be done in the summer while in January he looks for decent deals that might be available.

I think Byram fits into the latter category. You have to also factor in Martinez seems to quite like working with a big quad with the opportunity to rest and rotate.

I think all of the above are still a little way off stepping up. I like Oviedo a lot and always thought he could play well at right back and would be a good back up option, so I am glad he is being given that opportunity. Pennington has been around the first team squad, but I sense he will probably won't make it here.

 

[catcherintherye]

Yep. Both broke into the Barnsley team at RB.

We have more than enough cover (good cover and emergency cover) at RB. I was amazed RM was pursuing Byram.

Best all round that it fell through, imo.

As I said above, there is a pragmatism to Martinez. I think if an offer looks good value he's happy to go ahead with it (see our collection of right wingers we added over an 18 month period).

In fairness we don't really need Byram. I can completely understand him moving to West Ham as he'd be a bench player for us and a first teamer for them. By the sounds of it we hardly pushed the boat out for him.

It is a good trait Martinez has looking for value, but sometimes he can get a little carried away with it!

 

[Baines' left foot]

Holgate to bring breath of fresh air to underachieving Everton side.

 

[davek]

I think the answer to @davek question lies in pragmatism. Martinez is far more pragmatic than Moyes was and far closer to Kendall/Royle. I think he saw Byram available at a knockdown price and thought he would be a good addition. At the price quoted it would be a great buy. I think that's really how Martinez sees the January window, not an ideal time to do business but potential a good chance to pick up solid players at a knockdown price. If you look at McGeady and then Lennon both fit that bill. In all honesty we didn't "need" either of them bit given the silly money that's being thrown about they represented good value.

I think people misunderstand Martinez when he talks about the January window. he doesn't mean we won't sign anyone, but rather he won't do anything fundamental then. The window we signed Mcgeady we lost Jelavic and Heitinga, which he was happy to put towards Lukaku in the summer. He sees major transfer bits to be done in the summer while in January he looks for decent deals that might be available.

I think Byram fits into the latter category. You have to also factor in Martinez seems to quite like working with a big quad with the opportunity to rest and rotate.

I think all of the above are still a little way off stepping up. I like Oviedo a lot and always thought he could play well at right back and would be a good back up option, so I am glad he is being given that opportunity. Pennington has been around the first team squad, but I sense he will probably won't make it here.

Last January we defo needed someone like Lennon in. We were insipid on the ball going forward and needed someone who could turn defence into attack quickly. Lennon fitted the bill. It was a season changing deal. He offered a lot of energy we were desperate for, chipped in with a couple and got us on the front foot as an attacking force...and defended well too.

By the same token we need a game changer now in terms of a GK deal. We wont get it, but he could at least move decisively for a forward to come in and provide insurance for the injury to Lukaku which will inevitable come if he keeps playing every game.

 

[bicycleheader]

Holgate to bring breath of fresh air to underachieving Everton side.

flouride football?

 

[davids]

Last January we defo needed someone like Lennon in. We were insipid on the ball going forward and needed someone who could turn defence into attack quickly. Lennon fitted the bill. It was a season changing deal. He offered a lot of energy we were desperate for, chipped in with a couple and got us on the front foot as an attacking force...and defended well too.

By the same token we need a game changer now in terms of a GK deal. We wont get it, but he could at least move decisively for a forward to come in and provide insurance for the injury to Lukaku which will inevitable come if he keeps playing every game.

Totally agree,we won't see a change with a GK and I have a nasty suspicion he see's Kone as cover for Rom with Mirallas filling in Kone's role.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Last January we defo needed someone like Lennon in. We were insipid on the ball going forward and needed someone who could turn defence into attack quickly. Lennon fitted the bill. It was a season changing deal. He offered a lot of energy we were desperate for, chipped in with a couple and got us on the front foot as an attacking force...and defended well too.


By the same token we need a game changer now in terms of a GK deal. We wont get it, but he could at least move decisively for a forward to come in and provide insurance for the injury to Lukaku which will inevitable come if he keeps playing every game.

This is why it surprises me we didn’t get Austin. Even his agent thought he’d end up at Goodison.


I can see why we moved for Byram as he’s further ahead in his development than the youngsters we have and Coleman has been linked with big moves. If Coleman went this Summer we couldn’t replace him with one of the kids as they’re not at the required level just yet. But we maybe could have replaced him with Byram. We could get away with not signing him, he’s not a game changer, but it would have been a good signing. Especially considering the youngsters at right back are mostly central defenders playing there, whereas Byram would be more of a Coleman type player.


In terms of the GK position, if he thought there was an issue with Howard he would drop him, unless he felt that Robles wasn’t good enough. If he felt that about Robles why did he sign him and why does he even play him in the cup games. If Martinez brought in a new keeper right now he’d be saying he has no confidence in both Howard and Robles, I just can’t see him doing that in January, as it’d be loads of pressure on the new keeper.

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

flouride football?

He'll devastate plaque and gingivitis!

 

[davek]

This is why it surprises me we didn’t get Austin. Even his agent thought he’d end up at Goodison.


I can see why we moved for Byram as he’s further ahead in his development than the youngsters we have and Coleman has been linked with big moves. If Coleman went this Summer we couldn’t replace him with one of the kids as they’re not at the required level just yet. But we maybe could have replaced him with Byram. We could get away with not signing him, he’s not a game changer, but it would have been a good signing. Especially considering the youngsters at right back are mostly central defenders playing there, whereas Byram would be more of a Coleman type player.


In terms of the GK position, if he thought there was an issue with Howard he would drop him, unless he felt that Robles wasn’t good enough. If he felt that about Robles why did he sign him and why does he even play him in the cup games. If Martinez brought in a new keeper right now he’d be saying he has no confidence in both Howard and Robles, I just can’t see him doing that in January, as it’d be loads of pressure on the new keeper.

Ultimately, for me, the Byram thing came down to how good he actually is. Loads said about him, but I dont get the impression he is or ever will be good enough to step into Coleman's boots - and that has to be our yardstick in buying players. I'm not convinced by him and reckon we've dodged a bullet here.

But there's never been any urgency over RB. Coleman is on his way back and we have adequate cover. The GK deal we need, as you say, isn't likely unless Howard sorts something out in the MLS in the next week or so. Highly doubtful. That leaves us with the Lukaku understudy to realistically pile cash into and give us options/security. Not sure on Austin. He's a predator, for sure, and £4M was a snip. But would he have fitted the way we play? I think the feller he'll likely replace at Southampton, Long, would do us. He's patient and prepared to sit on the bench, and he gets a goal when he comes on. Use the Naismith money to bring him in and that'd be job done for the window.

 

[Tubey]

Ultimately, for me, the Byram thing came down to how good he actually is. Loads said about him, but I dont get the impression he is or ever will be good enough to step into Coleman's boots - and that has to be our yardstick in buying players. I'm not convinced by him and reckon we've dodged a bullet here.

But there's never been any urgency over RB. Coleman is on his way back and we have adequate cover. The GK deal we need, as you say, isn't likely unless Howard sorts something out in the MLS in the next week or so. Highly doubtful. That leaves us with the Lukaku understudy to realistically pile cash into and give us options/security. Not sure on Austin. He's a predator, for sure, and £4M was a snip. But would he have fitted the way we play? I think the feller he'll likely replace at Southampton, Long, would do us. He's patient and prepared to sit on the bench, and he gets a goal when he comes on. Use the Naismith money to bring him in and that'd be job done for the window.

If Shane Long was our transfer window done, I'd be devastated.

We can look at a striker in the summer - Mirallas can do a job there and Kone isn't as bad as people make out (people forget he's actually out of position when he plays wide left).

Yarmolenko is the one. Bring him in, play him wide, then you have Kone back to deputising Mirallas and you cross your fingers on Lukaku's fitness which, regardless of buying another striker, would be the case anyway.

 

[davek]

If Shane Long was our transfer window done, I'd be devastated.

We can look at a striker in the summer - Mirallas can do a job there and Kone isn't as bad as people make out (people forget he's actually out of position when he plays wide left).

Yarmolenko is the one. Bring him in, play him wide, then you have Kone back to deputising Mirallas and you cross your fingers on Lukaku's fitness which, regardless of buying another striker, would be the case anyway.

Mirallas cant lead a line and neither can Kone. There is no able deputy at the club for Lukaku if he gets injured.

Yarmolenko would be a welcome addition, but we're not likely to get him. They're asking big sums for a player who's near the end of his contract and he;ll be off to a club in the CL anyway.