2020/21 Michael Keane

[Eggs]

....there is an understandable concentration on the two abysmal goals we conceded last night, but there was a moment elsewhere that perfectly summed up my consistent view of Keane.

Son lined him up in a one-on-one & it was as though Keane had divers boots on. Keane didn’t get close to laying a glove on him (the commentary said ‘Son goes past Keane like he’s nothing there’) but then there is no power of recovery, he flounders like a tortoise on its back as Son runs in on Pickford.

There’s no doubt he’s played well at times this season but his weaknesses will always surface, there’s nothing new to be said that hasn’t been said before.

Forwards in this league will genuinely relish playing against him.

 

[Gilbert..]

....Godfrey looks outstanding & Digne isn’t too shabby. I imagine both have been considered by better sides & Mina might arguably fall into that category if the links to Italy are true.

Mina has errors just like the rest. Digne isnt a great defender. Great going the other way.
Godfrey is a possible. Athletic. Rough parts of his game still but he's still young.
Our defenders aint all that. Need to stop kidding ourselves.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Penos and open play goals are weirdly both worth the same, 1 goal.

Not a good way to think about it.

Take Sigurdsson out of the equation. Drop another teammate in there. Maybe the teammate scores, maybe he doesn't. If the teammate slots 70% of the penalties they take, Sigurdsson's certain conversion effectively added 0.3 goals to the tally, as compared to the unknowable counterfactual where another teammate takes it and probably slots.

The purpose of fancy stats like xG is to say something about the difference between Sigurdsson's conversions from the penalty spot and his slotting a tough volley or, say, the goals Rodriguez yanks out of his nether regions.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Penos and open play goals are weirdly both worth the same, 1 goal.

So now we’re praising people at Everton for scoring some penalties. Is that the level we’re at now?

 

[Saint Domingo]

Same stats as James then, for a player who apparently does nothing.

Pens count just as much as goals. As I was told repeatedly when I said King wasn't good enough for the last 2 years when people wanted him after Bournemouth initially got relegated.

and if James took our pens instead he’d be on 9 goals (assuming he scored the same as Siggurdson) and Siggurdson would be on 3.

I don’t like to compare James to Siggurdson the same way one doesn’t compare liquid gold to month old barbecue grease.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Son lined him up in a one-on-one & it was as though Keane had divers boots on. Keane didn’t get close to laying a glove on him (the commentary said ‘Son goes past Keane like he’s nothing there’) but then there is no power of recovery, he flounders like a tortoise on its back as Son runs in on Pickford.

(elite) Forwards in this league will genuinely relish playing against him.

I think the bolded bit is the rub.

He's fine as part of a well-organized unit. He has relatively little individual quality. When moments occur that demand that quality, he gets exposed by good attackers. Those moments are more likely to occur the further we try to play up the pitch. It's a problem. It's probably not a coincidence that Carlo didn't play Keane against City in the cup.

That said, he's the one virtually indestructible player we've got. Are we going to concede less if we sell him to bring in Koulibaly, who's starting to show the injury history of an older player after being nigh indestructible for years himself? I don't know.

A move like that might let us play up the pitch a bit more, which might be worth. I certainly would want to be confident in not having to go to three CBs in order to cover for not having healthy midfielders before doing it.

 

[catcherintherye]

Its a strange 1, hes been an utter ghost in some games, but he has 6 goals and 4 assists this season, for context, the Neto fella who people want us to throw 40m at to buy has 5 goals 6 assists.

And this is exactly why Ancelotti likes him I think. That when push comes to shove, in terms of impact on the final third, he is right up there. Bernard is a lovely footballer in the eye, but he doesn't effect games in that way.

I think this has been Sigurdsson's best season for us as well. He hasn't had the team built around him, but he has filled in in different positions where needed and came up with a number of important moments.

I thinmk there's a 3rd position between keeping hima nd giving him a long contract, and thats to keep reviewing the contract on a rolling basi. That would make most sense to me. As you say, to replace his goals and assists would cost us a fair bit of money.

 

[Saint Domingo]

....there is an understandable concentration on the two abysmal goals we conceded last night, but there was a moment elsewhere that perfectly summed up my consistent view of Keane.

Son lined him up in a one-on-one & it was as though Keane had divers boots on. Keane didn’t get close to laying a glove on him (the commentary said ‘Son goes past Keane like he’s nothing there’) but then there is no power of recovery, he flounders like a tortoise on its back as Son runs in on Pickford.

There’s no doubt he’s played well at times this season but his weaknesses will always surface, there’s nothing new to be said that hasn’t been said before.

Forwards in this league will genuinely relish playing against him.

In the Palace game before his error which led to the equaliser there was a moment when a ball bounced harmlessly between him and Siggurdson. Either of them could have taken ownership of it, there was no pressure whatsoever, if both had charged towards it we probably would have been on too, but no there they were both just looking at each other, half edging towards it hesitating, until eventually they came under pressure, they both inevitably fell over for no reason whatsoever and we ended up giving Palace a ball and an opportunity that we were 100% favourite to deal with easily.

Any centreback worth his salt takes command of that in the last minutes of a game that we’re 1 up in and that either safely away or in row s down the other end of the pitch. Not Evergiven Keane though.

 

[Saint Domingo]

And this is exactly why Ancelotti likes him I think. That when push comes to shove, in terms of impact on the final third, he is right up there. Bernard is a lovely footballer in the eye, but he doesn't effect games in that way.

I think this has been Sigurdsson's best season for us as well. He hasn't had the team built around him, but he has filled in in different positions where needed and came up with a number of important moments.

I thinmk there's a 3rd position between keeping hima nd giving him a long contract, and thats to keep reviewing the contract on a rolling basi. That would make most sense to me. As you say, to replace his goals and assists would cost us a fair bit of money.

If we can’t find an attacking midfielder who could score three open play goals and provide 4 assists when he takes half of the set pieces we have then our recruitment is in serious trouble.

Legitimately though, what planet are those numbers good enough? Osman would produce way more than that in a season from out wide, not taking set pieces, and he was derided by fans as not good enough. Arteta was miles better. These were all players not good enough to take us to the top yet now we’re accepting one much worse because he’s doing slightly better than he was before? He’s stealing a living here. 50 million, 100k a week.

 

[Bluestar]

Mina has errors just like the rest. Digne isnt a great defender. Great going the other way.
Godfrey is a possible. Athletic. Rough parts of his game still but he's still young.
Our defenders aint all that. Need to stop kidding ourselves.

I wouldn’t disagree with this, but there are worse areas of our squad. I think the priority will be elsewhere this summer.

 

[catcherintherye]

....there is an understandable concentration on the two abysmal goals we conceded last night, but there was a moment elsewhere that perfectly summed up my consistent view of Keane.

Son lined him up in a one-on-one & it was as though Keane had divers boots on. Keane didn’t get close to laying a glove on him (the commentary said ‘Son goes past Keane like he’s nothing there’) but then there is no power of recovery, he flounders like a tortoise on its back as Son runs in on Pickford.

There’s no doubt he’s played well at times this season but his weaknesses will always surface, there’s nothing new to be said that hasn’t been said before.

Forwards in this league will genuinely relish playing against him.

It's not often I get this way, but I was genuinely fewming with him yesteday. I've calmed a little, but you're right, that was Spurs's third and final shot on target last night. All of them came, to a lesser or great degree from Keane. It's obviously really frustrating in a game which had we won we would have probably inked in the top 7, and given ourselves a good chance of the top 4 we have just gifted it away.

That moment with Son was like watching Dave Watson at the end of his career. He just got nowhere near him. But at least with a Dave Watson, he would make the right decisions when the ball was in the air, and get it clear. Not 1, but 2 elementary mistakes like that is just not good enough, in what was a huge game for us.

He's funny Keane, as he will have spells where that doesn't happen as much to him (Son yesterday) so I don't know if his confidence just goes after the 1st mistake, or if we play differently earlier this seaosn and we are more expansive now, but he does look a different player.

If you're Ancelotti though, games like that must just make your mind up. Keane and Holgate are not going to be good enough if we want to keep improving and go from a top 8 side who on a good year might get into the top 6 or even top 4, to one that consistently does it and expects to do it. Mina is injured far too often so there is a decision there too. I can see why a CB is becoming a bigger priority.

You can't give games like that, and you think of the Crystal Palace game as well, away. Even with all the other mistakes we have made this season, if we see those 2 games through, we are right in the mix for the top 4.

 

[blueblueskies]

Such a confidence player. Think being dropped by England has knocked him a lot. Gone from looking like one of the best defenders in the league to the shambles we saw last night.

 

[catcherintherye]

If we can’t find an attacking midfielder who could score three open play goals and provide 4 assists when he takes half of the set pieces we have then our recruitment is in serious trouble.

Legitimately though, what planet are those numbers good enough? Osman would produce way more than that in a season from out wide, not taking set pieces, and he was derided by fans as not good enough. Arteta was miles better. These were all players not good enough to take us to the top yet now we’re accepting one much worse because he’s doing slightly better than he was before? He’s stealing a living here. 50 million, 100k a week.

I think he's scored 8 and 9 assists in all comps so far, obviously happy to discount the pens. I believe there are 3 pens as you say, so it's 14 goals and assists in 2454 minutes which is one every 175 minutes.

In the league, discounting the pens it's 1 every 245 mins. Given the range of positions he plays and the versatility he shows, that is very commendable. For comparison James stats are 1 every 125 all comps and 1 1 every 146 in the league, so better but he is more injury prone than Sigurdsson.

I'm not going to go back to look at Osman but would imagine in some seasons he would produce similar numbers, doing a similar job. I agree with you re the fee of £40m was too steep, which isn't his fault, but we are not evaluating now whether we pay 40m for him. We are evaluating whether he is worth keeping on for another season if his form holds up. I'm not sure there are that many, who can give us his goals/assists (even discounting pens) are pretty reliable (he is rarely injured) and can give us the tactical flexibility the manager clearly likes.

As has been pointed out, that Neto (who I really lik) has 13 g/a around 1 every 200 mins. That Traore has 1 every 550 minutes. So it's not as easy as people think in my view mate.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think he's scored 8 and 9 assists in all comps so far, obviously happy to discount the pens. I believe there are 3 pens as you say, so it's 14 goals and assists in 2454 minutes which is one every 175 minutes.

In the league, discounting the pens it's 1 every 245 mins. Given the range of positions he plays and the versatility he shows, that is very commendable. For comparison James stats are 1 every 125 all comps and 1 1 every 146 in the league, so better but he is more injury prone than Sigurdsson.

I'm not going to go back to look at Osman but would imagine in some seasons he would produce similar numbers, doing a similar job. I agree with you re the fee of £40m was too steep, which isn't his fault, but we are not evaluating now whether we pay 40m for him. We are evaluating whether he is worth keeping on for another season if his form holds up. I'm not sure there are that many, who can give us his goals/assists (even discounting pens) are pretty reliable (he is rarely injured) and can give us the tactical flexibility the manager clearly likes.

As has been pointed out, that Neto (who I really lik) has 13 g/a around 1 every 200 mins. That Traore has 1 every 550 minutes. So it's not as easy as people think in my view mate.

Theyre both playing in a poor Wolves team who lost their striker this season.

The difference is though that both those players are quick. If we want to press, they can press, if there’s a 50-50 they can win it, if there’s a counter attack, they break away with it, if the opposition is on a breakaway they can foil it.

Siggurdson is the opposite outcome in every scenario and always will be because of his crippling lack of pace. Regardless what he does on the ball (which is average in my eyes) his off the ball work is non existent because it can’t ever be anything worthwhile. He sometimes makes a Herculean effort to get a despairing lunging toe on a ball that would be a standard intercept for any premier league midfielder.

If Carlo wants to keep him as a squad player as a rotation for James on reduced wages then fine. Every time he comes on the pitch though from a defensive perspective we are down to 10 men.

 

[jonnyboy316]

I think he's scored 8 and 9 assists in all comps so far, obviously happy to discount the pens. I believe there are 3 pens as you say, so it's 14 goals and assists in 2454 minutes which is one every 175 minutes.

In the league, discounting the pens it's 1 every 245 mins. Given the range of positions he plays and the versatility he shows, that is very commendable. For comparison James stats are 1 every 125 all comps and 1 1 every 146 in the league, so better but he is more injury prone than Sigurdsson.

I'm not going to go back to look at Osman but would imagine in some seasons he would produce similar numbers, doing a similar job. I agree with you re the fee of £40m was too steep, which isn't his fault, but we are not evaluating now whether we pay 40m for him. We are evaluating whether he is worth keeping on for another season if his form holds up. I'm not sure there are that many, who can give us his goals/assists (even discounting pens) are pretty reliable (he is rarely injured) and can give us the tactical flexibility the manager clearly likes.

As has been pointed out, that Neto (who I really lik) has 13 g/a around 1 every 200 mins. That Traore has 1 every 550 minutes. So it's not as easy as people think in my view mate.

Keane had a stinker yesterday I think he has been one of our better performers this season. As for the Gilfi vs James comparison I don’t think it is fair to go by assists you should look at big chances created. Today for example he would of had a hatrick of assists if he was putting the ball through to Harry Kane. I can think of loads of occasions this season where he has put the ball on a plate and we have missed a sitter. According to the PL website he has created 10 big chances in addition to his assist and Gilfi has only created 1. Also 7 through balls compared to 1