New Everton Stadium Discussion

[Davideeyore]

Overhanging stands need more steel, which is hugely expensive at the moment. The main issue though is that the seats under the overhang end up with a letterbox view. Unfortunately, that is the exact place you want your premium seats or executive boxes.

Do you know who owns Everton? And who is his very wealthy steel owning business partner is?

The letterbox view yeah, at the back of the Gwladys St many time so I know that. This is one of the reasons to build a new ground.

 

[gwladysnight]

Do you know who owns Everton? And who is his very wealthy steel owning business partner is?

The letterbox view yeah, at the back of the Gwladys St many time so I know that. This is one of the reasons to build a new ground.

So you want to build a new ground with the same issues as Goodison.

 

[Davideeyore]

So you want to build a new ground with the same issues as Goodison.

Aye?
What you on about?

 

[gwladysnight]

Aye?
What you on about?

Cantilever or as you call them overhanging stands reduce what should be the most expensive seats in the ground into restricted views.

It is great from an atmosphere point of view and gives better views, but it is financial suicide.

Mid level seats near the halfway line are where you generate income. They are like ringside seats at a boxing event or first class tickets on a plane. They should be hugely expensive and generate massive revenues for the Club.

If you have overhanging stands, then you turn the clubs biggest revenue earner into letterbox views. That are the worst seats in the house. You also massively reduce the amount of space you have for hospitality.

 

[Davideeyore]

Never heard such rubbish.

 

[wainy]

Cantilever or as you call them overhanging stands reduce what should be the most expensive seats in the ground into restricted views.

It is great from an atmosphere point of view and gives better views, but it is financial suicide.

Mid level seats near the halfway line are where you generate income. They are like ringside seats at a boxing event or first class tickets on a plane. They should be hugely expensive and generate massive revenues for the Club.

If you have overhanging stands, then you turn the clubs biggest revenue earner into letterbox views. That are the worst seats in the house. You also massively reduce the amount of space you have for hospitality.

Lad you saying row QQ in the lower gwladys is a bad view

 

[Tom Hughes]

Cantilever or as you call them overhanging stands reduce what should be the most expensive seats in the ground into restricted views.

It is great from an atmosphere point of view and gives better views, but it is financial suicide.

Mid level seats near the halfway line are where you generate income. They are like ringside seats at a boxing event or first class tickets on a plane. They should be hugely expensive and generate massive revenues for the Club.

If you have overhanging stands, then you turn the clubs biggest revenue earner into letterbox views. That are the worst seats in the house. You also massively reduce the amount of space you have for hospitality.

Overhanging tiers bring the fans far closer to the pitch on average and improve viewing distances. Corporate tiers and boxes can be in a middle tier of a triple-decker as at The Millenium, Emirates or Spurs. There they generally enjoy far better elevated views than being set back into the bottom tier of 2 tier format. Over lapping tiers don't need to be so deep as to create letterbox views, but even then some people like that enclosed atmospheric feel, and the views afforded to those in the upper tier by being brought closer to the pitch are much higher value than in a single or stepped 2 tier format.

 

[Davideeyore]

Overhanging tiers bring the fans far closer to the pitch on average and improve viewing distances. Corporate tiers and boxes can be in a middle tier of a triple-decker as at The Millenium, Emirates or Spurs. There they generally enjoy far better elevated views than being set back into the bottom tier of 2 tier format. Over lapping tiers don't need to be so deep as to create letterbox views, but even then some people like that enclosed atmospheric feel, and the views afforded to those in the upper tier by being brought closer to the pitch are much higher value than in a single or stepped 2 tier format.

Good post Tom. I couldn't have put it better myself lol

The notion that a new stadium would have letterbox views is laughable. I fully understand the term having sat at the back of the Gwladys Street many times.

I hope the club will revise the plans somewhat before too long. It seems an awful waste of space to just have back tiered stands as currently planned. To have overlapping tiers does all of the above that Tom says. It creates more seating on the footprint, seems people are under the impression that BMD's footprint is tight so why not build up?
More especially that the WHS may soon drop away. And maybe sentimentally for me as Goodison was the first stadium with 4 double-decker stands. We still have 2 of the original 4.

Here's some (modern) variations and one of BMD. I hope Colin Chong and others are reading this. BMD capacity is on the low side. Let's have some double decker/overhanging stands and even a triple decker.

 

[gwladysnight]

Overhanging tiers bring the fans far closer to the pitch on average and improve viewing distances. Corporate tiers and boxes can be in a middle tier of a triple-decker as at The Millenium, Emirates or Spurs. There they generally enjoy far better elevated views than being set back into the bottom tier of 2 tier format. Over lapping tiers don't need to be so deep as to create letterbox views, but even then some people like that enclosed atmospheric feel, and the views afforded to those in the upper tier by being brought closer to the pitch are much higher value than in a single or stepped 2 tier format.

I agree with you. In my initial post, I stated that overhanging tiers give better views and create a better atmosphere. The problem is they are more expensive to build, requiring more steel and supports. They also reduce the space inside the Stadium for hospitality and Corporate facilities.

 

[gwladysnight]

Good post Tom. I couldn't have put it better myself lol

The notion that a new stadium would have letterbox views is laughable. I fully understand the term having sat at the back of the Gwladys Street many times.

I hope the club will revise the plans somewhat before too long. It seems an awful waste of space to just have back tiered stands as currently planned. To have overlapping tiers does all of the above that Tom says. It creates more seating on the footprint, seems people are under the impression that BMD's footprint is tight so why not build up?
More especially that the WHS may soon drop away. And maybe sentimentally for me as Goodison was the first stadium with 4 double-decker stands. We still have 2 of the original 4.

Here's some (modern) variations and one of BMD. I hope Colin Chong and others are reading this. BMD capacity is on the low side. Let's have some double decker/overhanging stands and even a triple decker.

View attachment 131633View attachment 131634View attachment 131635View attachment 131636

The issue though is cost. If we were to add in overhanging stands, the cost would jump hugely. Posts are no longer acceptable in modern stadia. So for overhanging stands you need huge steel cantilevers. The current plans are much better from an economic point of view.

 

[Davideeyore]

The issue though is cost. If we were to add in overhanging stands, the cost would jump hugely. Posts are no longer acceptable in modern stadia. So for overhanging stands you need huge steel cantilevers. The current plans are much better from an economic point of view.

I don't have any financial knowledge of stadium building so can't answer that.

We are backed by a very wealthy owner and his (more senior if I may put it like that) business partner is an even wealthier man. With a steel business. "USM’s assets include Metalloinvest, a major global producer and supplier of iron ore and steel products".

I don't think cost is an issue at all.

The problem I think is from the Elstone days the club has been overly cautious. Even the original BMD plans went from 60,000 to 52,000. Stadium size appeared cut back. At a time when stadiums are getting bigger. Take a look at some of the Euro stadiums.

 

[gwladysnight]

I don't have any financial knowledge of stadium building so can't answer that.

We are backed by a very wealthy owner and his (more senior if I may put it like that) business partner is an even wealthier man. With a steel business. "USM’s assets include Metalloinvest, a major global producer and supplier of iron ore and steel products".

I don't think cost is an issue at all.

The problem I think is from the Elstone days the club has been overly cautious. Even the original BMD plans went from 60,000 to 52,000. Stadium size appeared cut back. At a time when stadiums are getting bigger. Take a look at some of the Euro stadiums.

A 60,000 Stadium on this site with its issues could easily cost north of a billion pounds. Especially if you incorporate overhanging stands and build upwards.

Moshiri and Usmanov may be wealthy, but they are also businessmen. The Stadium has to make financial sense for Everton.

 

[Tom Hughes]

The issue though is cost. If we were to add in overhanging stands, the cost would jump hugely. Posts are no longer acceptable in modern stadia. So for overhanging stands you need huge steel cantilevers. The current plans are much better from an economic point of view.

Yes, they can be more expensive as they are generally structurally more complex, but that can be offset by fully exploiting low cost contruction lower tier and reduced roof area, with structural savings there. There generally needs to be some overlapping in larger stadiums to avoid exceeding maximum viewing distances, especially in the corners.

If there is say a 12-18 row overlap on both sides, then that reduces back row to back row distances between opposite stands by 20-30m..... which massively increases intimacy.

 

[gwladysnight]

Yes, they can be more expensive as they are generally structurally more complex, but that can be offset by fully exploiting low cost contruction lower tier and reduced roof area, with structural savings there. There generally needs to be some overlapping in larger stadiums to avoid exceeding maximum viewing distances, especially in the corners.

If there is say a 12-18 row overlap on both sides, then that reduces back row to back row distances between opposite stands by 20-30m..... which massively increases intimacy.

The construction of the lower tier will not cost less though because the higher you go, the stronger the foundations and the steel need to be. We are building on a filled in dock in an exposed location.

The higher the stands are, the more the stadium will cost. The Stadium will also have less internal space.

From a supporters perspective and from an aesthetics point of view, what you have described is better, but it is much more expensive and gives less space for hospitality and corporates.

 

[Tom Hughes]

The construction of the lower tier will not cost less though because the higher you go, the stronger the foundations and the steel need to be. We are building on a filled in dock in an exposed location.

The higher the stands are, the more the stadium will cost. The Stadium will also have less internal space.

From a supporters perspective and from an aesthetics point of view, what you have described is better, but it is much more expensive and gives less space for hospitality and corporates.

There is no reason for it to be a taller stadium for having overhanging tiers. Sightline geometry would allow the lower tier to be a shallower rake and consequently a lower construction cost per seat while preserving c-values. Thus affording a proportional larger spend per seat for the upper tier(s).

The corporate areas at the Emirates, Spurs and Millenium stadium are all significantly larger than our proposed ones, with better viewing distances and angles, and roomier tread depths and supporting lounges too. If anything, over lapping tiers allow for larger upper concourses on the same overall footprint.

As far as costs are concerned Feyenoord are currently looking at 63k capacity for a 3 tier bowl, with closing roof for approx £400m.... including reclaimed riverfront land. So I don't think cost should be prohibitive if we are spending £5-600m.