New Everton Stadium

[AndyRJ]

Those removed seats were in place in the drawings. Their support brackets were there during construction. They're not there now. I mentioned at the time that I had never seen a swept back angle at a corner for such a difference in rake of adjacent sections, and that it looked like it could create some impaired views, for all the obvious reasons, and probably the same reason why the initial Meis design had a parallel wall. I've sightline surveyed/modelled dozens of stands, but even if I hadn't, it's nonsense to suggest that I (or anyone else) needs to be part of the decision process to mention what I think was a design flaw. Just as is the case with those areas at the visitors section.

It's not nonsense at all and i've previously raised issue with this.

BDP Pattern are Global Stadium Design specialist architectural consultancy. They have a portfolio of high-profile sports and entertainment projects.

If you've worked in a consultancy environment then you will know there is a decision process behind everything. There has been a clear decision made here to angle the walls like they have done. A decision process that YOU were not involved with. One that Dan Meis himself WILL have been involved with.

I couldn't care less if you've 'sight line surveyed' dozens of stands. You are welcome to an opinion but you can't criticise a process/ decision you weren't involved in.

Why don't you list out all the stadiums you have personally been design lead on/ helped deliver.

 

[Tom Hughes]

I suppose it is subjective. Imho those walls angle the supporters onto the pitch, kind of focusing them in my mind.

That to me looks better than the flat Chelsea style join: (obviously this is an extreme example)

View attachment 283692

Or the Principality/Dortmund version, which makes it technically a smaller goal stand for us.

Like you pointed out before, they had the parallel version to start with - so I believe they knew what was better in terms of practicality and still chose to do something more aesthetic/design orientated. At least in my eyes.

Be interesting to speak to Dan about it if by chance I happen to bump into him at the opening game.

The aesthetic might be subjective, but basic sightline geometry isn't. As I said, there is a reason why it doesn't occur elsewhere in a new build (that I know of). The examples you mention only reinforce the point. Chelsea cannot possibly have a swept back angle in that corner, because whole swathes of seats would be obstructed in the side stand (although a slightly swept forward into the west stand could've been more asthetically pleasing).... the result there is a compromised fit for 2 completely different stands, designed separately with little regards to the future. Similar at the others. This is an entire new build, with the opportunity to avoid any sightline conflicts.

 

[arch stanton]

I've been fully 'I want to sit in the lower of the south stand'

But after using that seat view, reckon upper south stand, maybe 5/6 rows back is the sweet spot

someone's sat there mate

 

[Cjplennon]

Just a thought. In these £1200 seats does the 10 quid ale voucher have to be used on that day or does it carry over. If the former then won't the bar be simply rammed with a few thousand people making sure they get their monies worth? People who would not normally buy a drink there feeling like they have to

A tenner will probably get you 1 pint and a pie if your lucky. So I don't think it will rammed, just a good incentive to get in early have your tenners worth of stuff. It's not like it's free beer on tap and it's a new design so I imagine they have thought this all through.

 

[maccavennie]

I like your points @Tom Hughes

We'll see in Jan as thats when we get views from individual seats. That away end section has absolutely frazzled my brain I'm not going to lie, so I'm sceptical myself that the sightline in the East and West lower up against the wall at the top is going to perfect.

The away section is some serious design flaw that I just can't see how that hasn't been flagged up and stopped mid build and someone hasn't said "hey, wtf are we putting seats here as this isn't going to work".

Need someone to DM Dan on twitter and ask him what's going on as I'll struggle to wait until Jan to check

 

[Tom Hughes]

It's not nonsense at all and i've previously raised issue with this.

BDP Pattern are Global Stadium Design specialist architectural consultancy. They have a portfolio of high-profile sports and entertainment projects.

If you've worked in a consultancy environment then you will know there is a decision process behind everything. There has been a clear decision made here to angle the walls like they have done. A decision process that YOU were not involved with. One that Dan Meis himself WILL have been involved with.

I couldn't care less if you've 'sight line surveyed' dozens of stands. You are welcome to an opinion but you can't criticise a process/ decision you weren't involved in.

Why don't you list out all the stadiums you have personally been design lead on/ helped deliver.

When I (and others) raised this point. You stated categorically that there would be no restricted views, based on nothing other than faith in the "design process". The reality is the removed seats in the area in question and the other issue in the away section (which ironically you have been critical off, despite not being part of the process) show that you were wrong.

I have been involved several large projects in Structural/Mechanical/Marine design.... and have seen several absolute howlers get through, or almost get through to construction stages, including on one stadium project. However, I am not sure what that has to do with the point in question. I am not asking how many stadium projects you've been involved in because... it is irrelevant!

I surveyed several stadiums because I was involved in research for a stadium potential development project and later again for development of new sightline modelling software. Hence my interest in this particular detail.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

So the equivalent view from my seats gone up over 500 quid. Nice.

 

[Tom Hughes]

I like your points @Tom Hughes

We'll see in Jan as thats when we get views from individual seats. That away end section has absolutely frazzled my brain I'm not going to lie, so I'm sceptical myself that the sightline in the East and West lower up against the wall at the top is going to perfect.

The away section is some serious design flaw that I just can't see how that hasn't been flagged up and stopped mid build and someone hasn't said "hey, wtf are we putting seats here as this isn't going to work".

Need someone to DM Dan on twitter and ask him what's going on as I'll struggle to wait until Jan to check

I was hoping to be going for a visit next week and would've tried to get a better "view" of these areas, but unless someone drops out I'll have to wait.

Yes, they appear to be glaringly obvious flaws, but I don't think too many seats will be affected. The issue as you say is that they are entirely avoidable.

 

[AndyRJ]

When I (and others) raised this point. You stated categorically that there would be no restricted views, based on nothing other than faith in the "design process". The reality is the removed seats in the area in question and the other issue in the away section (which ironically you have been critical off, despite not being part of the process) show that you were wrong.

I have been involved several large projects in Structural/Mechanical/Marine design.... and have seen several absolute howlers get through, or almost get through to construction stages, including on one stadium project. However, I am not sure what that has to do with the point in question. I am not asking how many stadium projects you've been involved in because... it is irrelevant!

I surveyed several stadiums because I was involved in research for a stadium potential development project and later again for development of new sightline modelling software. Hence my interest in this particular detail.

That's not true though is it. The OFFICIAL line from the club is that there are no obstructed views. The OFFICIAL line from the design team is that there are no obstructed views.

Nothing has confirmed that the South Stand wall obstructs any views. Nothing has confirmed that seats have been 'Removed'. They were NEVER installed in the first place. That's a simple fact, something you clearly struggle with. Makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if they were there on the planning drawings but aren't now. It's planning, not construction. I'd expect you to understand what the RIBA Plan of Work is.

When talking about the away end, i stated that supporters would be standing so it wouldn't be an issue. As i've already conceded in this thread, that was an incorrect assumption as the area is actually seated. Nevertheless, no-one can say with certainty that those seats are absolutely obstructed or if they will even be sold. I'm quite happy to wait and reserve judgement and not openly criticse at every opportunity.

I'm trying to understand what your experience is that makes you such an expert on stadium design that it means you can openly criticse something you weren't involved in. Thanks for confirming you're not an expert.

*Edit* Just to add, I haven't been critical of the process or design at all. I suggested that it might have been better had they chamfered the corner of the platform off to improve the views. That's offering an opinion, i haven't called it flawed or poor design like you have. I fully expect that there is a reason why they have done what they have. A reason that no-one here knows because we aren't part of the design team!

 

[The binman chronicles]

The away section is some serious design flaw that I just can't see how that hasn't been flagged up and stopped mid build and someone hasn't said "hey, wtf are we putting seats here as this isn't going to work".

Need someone to DM Dan on twitter and ask him what's going on as I'll struggle to wait until Jan to check

I wouldn't call it serious, if you can see the goal from there - which I believe you can then it's not that bad. It's just a bit of why you would do it that way, without cutting that corner on a diagonal to open it up. As I mentioned yesterday, perhaps they know it will change.

It's bad that our initial thought was to check to see what these seats are like but they did it that way and as stadium enthusiasts we are intrigued to see how it works. One issue that Dan was not involved in is where the reporters/commentators sit at the top of the West stand, this was supposed to be in-between the blocks so the steps create the space to open the view, however the North side has poked out beyond that, creating a similar issue where you have to look over desks etc. to see the corner of the pitch:

The view from lower down without any obstacles you can see starts to pinch already:

Obviously depends a bit on your anatomy, but likely at the very back they'll have to stand to see the corner flag and probably the row below.

There is a big difference between these seats that although are compromised to some degree, it's not restricted like Goodison where you have a floor to the sky blockage because of a post. Where you sit around a vomitory could equally cause a small part of the pitch to be obscured whilst sitting, just in the same way someone very large (or has a big hat) in your line of view can.

 

[DrEFC]

I think they're all broadly the same (if this info graphic is still accurate) View attachment 283688

Bar lower west stand.. Thank you for this!

 

[Lee Smith]

I wouldn't call it serious, if you can see the goal from there - which I believe you can then it's not that bad. It's just a bit of why you would do it that way, without cutting that corner on a diagonal to open it up. As I mentioned yesterday, perhaps they know it will change.

It's bad that our initial thought was to check to see what these seats are like but they did it that way and as stadium enthusiasts we are intrigued to see how it works. One issue that Dan was not involved in is where the reporters/commentators sit at the top of the West stand, this was supposed to be in-between the blocks so the steps create the space to open the view, however the North side has poked out beyond that, creating a similar issue where you have to look over desks etc. to see the corner of the pitch:

View attachment 283701

The view from lower down without any obstacles you can see starts to pinch already:

View attachment 283703

Obviously depends a bit on your anatomy, but likely at the very back they'll have to stand to see the corner flag and probably the row below.

There is a big difference between these seats that although are compromised to some degree, it's not restricted like Goodison where you have a floor to the sky blockage because of a post. Where you sit around a vomitory could equally cause a small part of the pitch to be obscured whilst sitting, just in the same way someone very large (or has a big hat) in your line of view can.

The above post raises a good point... It will be interesting to see how detailed the specific "View From Seat" option is, once it is made available.

Would be brilliant if you could enter a few variables which would give you a really bespoke and as accurate as possible representation.

Could be really informative if for example they give you the option to enter your height (the view from a particular seat for a 6ft plus adult could be totally different to a young child, especially if sat up against a vomitory or handrail). Also being able to switch between how it looks sitting versus standing (for when everyone stands up as an attack starts to develop (LOL as if!)), and the option of filling the surrounding seats with models of others.

Can't see them doing any of that though

 

[maccavennie]

I wouldn't call it serious, if you can see the goal from there - which I believe you can then it's not that bad. It's just a bit of why you would do it that way, without cutting that corner on a diagonal to open it up. As I mentioned yesterday, perhaps they know it will change.

It's bad that our initial thought was to check to see what these seats are like but they did it that way and as stadium enthusiasts we are intrigued to see how it works. One issue that Dan was not involved in is where the reporters/commentators sit at the top of the West stand, this was supposed to be in-between the blocks so the steps create the space to open the view, however the North side has poked out beyond that, creating a similar issue where you have to look over desks etc. to see the corner of the pitch:

View attachment 283701

The view from lower down without any obstacles you can see starts to pinch already:

View attachment 283703

Obviously depends a bit on your anatomy, but likely at the very back they'll have to stand to see the corner flag and probably the row below.

There is a big difference between these seats that although are compromised to some degree, it's not restricted like Goodison where you have a floor to the sky blockage because of a post. Where you sit around a vomitory could equally cause a small part of the pitch to be obscured whilst sitting, just in the same way someone very large (or has a big hat) in your line of view can.

Good spot that, I never noticed it on the back of the upper West.

I'll just have to wait until Jan and I'm gonna go seat by seat in the whole stadium

 

[GoldenToffee]

Question:
Do we think they will still do a version of "Operation Goodison Exercise", and if so, what are they going to call it?

"Operation Everton Stadium Exercise"?

What even is Operation Goodison Exercise?

 

[Charro]

Question:
Do we think they will still do a version of "Operation Goodison Exercise", and if so, what are they going to call it?

"Operation Everton Stadium Exercise"?

What even is Operation Goodison Exercise?

It's just a security exercise involving the stewards.