2017/18 Nikola Vlasic

[Efcjake]

Lookman deffo hasn't had 10 full matches under Koeman mate haha. The position we found ourself in this season most managers would have done what we did and go for experience like Bolasie; no club is risking PL cash with kids!

Erm well personally Vlasic is a 10 and Lookman maybe inside left sort of forward? He plays okay inside too.

The OS says he's started 9 matches and another 17 off the bench, close enough for me to your 10 full games for me to say I'm not wholly convinced he will hack it for us. He's shown flashes of what he is capable of but he still makes poor decisions on the ball and doesn't do enough to cover his full back.


Bolasie wasn't even fit for the majority of the time Lookman has been here and he still couldn't get in our starting 11.



Why did you say "personally" when talking about what position they play?

Either they play there or they don't. The fact that nobody knows for certain tells you that they haven't shown enough in any position to give anybody any certainty about where we would get the best out of them because they haven't shown that quality yet.

If they had demonstrated that they have the ability to make an overall positive impact each time they played then they would be starting matches, but they haven't and so they don't.

Judge them on what they've shown us and that alone and they haven't been that good. Alright as squad players but nowhere near the incredible talent people want to make them out to be.

Vlasic hasn't had as much time as Lookman so the jury is still out on him for me but Lookman has shown that he has a lot of work to do on his game if he is going to reach the level some foresee of him here.

Some of us seem to constantly be doing this with players not in the team. It isn't any coincidence that Lookman, Vlasic, and Funes Mori are all suddenly highly rated despite the crushing reality of them not actually being good enough to win a starting spot.

If there's one thing this season has taught me it is that we are definitely more than capable of overrating our players when they aren't actually playing. The vaults from last summer about our new signings would show most of us were guilty of that.

The reason these players haven't been starting matches is simply because they haven't shown they're consistently good enough to. It is really that simple.

 

[Simon baker]

What's Vlasic's proper position?

Or Lookman's?

They've each played at least 4-5 games and neither, if you're honest with yourself, has taken their chances and shown that they're ready to do more than cameos.

I think they could both be alright squad players but neither is consistently good enough to start and unfortunately neither of them wants to stay on the bench.

So if they're not good enough to start and not happy on the bench what do we do?

They weren’t even getting on the bench though why on earth would any young ambitious employee never mind footballer not seek Employment elsewhere if there progression path is better elsewhere.

Simple fact is we have handled both players development very poorly.

Lookman has been handled by Leipzig exactly as we should have some starts some sub appearances not bombed out of squads with no minutes

 

[Efcjake]

They weren’t even getting on the bench though why on earth would any young ambitious employee never mind footballer not seek Employment elsewhere if there progression path is better elsewhere.

Simple fact is we have handled both players development very poorly.

Lookman has been handled by Leipzig exactly as we should have some starts some sub appearances not bombed out of squads with no minutes

Why are both of these players supposed to be guaranteed playing time?

Should they not have to earn it like the senior members of the squad have to?

If they were better options than what else was available then they would be starting matches. They aren't and so they don't.

Lookman was getting some starts and some sub appearances for us this year but obviously Sam felt that Bolasie was the safer option for his style of play.

Why do the players not appear to bear any responsibility for failing to do enough to convince the managers they should be starting? It appears that all responsibility for their development and improvement is on the club and not on the individual.

 

[Simon baker]

Why are both of these players supposed to be guaranteed playing time?

Should they not have to earn it like the senior members of the squad have to?

If they were better options than what else was available then they would be starting matches. They aren't and so they don't.

Lookman was getting some starts and some sub appearances for us this year but obviously Sam felt that Bolasie was the safer option for his style of play.

Why do the players not appear to bear any responsibility for failing to do enough to convince the managers they should be starting? It appears that all responsibility for their development and improvement is on the club and not on the individual.

Your on a wind up if you are suggesting senior players have earnt anything in this squad.

Plus the very reason they’re should be allowances made is there youth which invariably means they will be inconsistent.

Managing there playing time should help with consistency. Dropping them from squads after good performances simply demotivates them.

We have screwed this up we just have to hope it’s not too late.

We will see by the standard of clubs that try to sign them if it is too late

 

[banno]

You would say, but it obviously isn't that clear what their actual positions are is it?

I understand that defending is not their strengths but it is a team game and if they cannot participate in that side of the match then we have to accommodate them. Once you start getting a couple of these midfielders who can't play both directions then you start looking defensively exposed.

Lookman hasn't exactly lit the world alight over in Germany, I'd question how much you've actually watched him. They're definitely happy with him but it isn't like he has even managed to win a starting spot in that team either, probably because his weaknesses are still recognized.

What are Vlasic's strengths in your opinion?

I haven't been impressed by anything I've seen him do tbh. There's a reason he's not been getting played. People can argue that it is because he is played out of position but quality should appear in moments at least if they do have it regardless of where they play. I've barely seen Vlasic beat a man or play a penetrating pass. I don't know why people are so confident this will change if he moves inside.

Ok name a ready made youngster who can defend and attack with equal strength. The main point I am making is we are not utilising there strengths enough because they end up doing more of the defensive side and for that reason are very seldom in a position to show what they can do. I have watched Lookman quite a few times actually and what I do see is him playing to his strength and helping with goals and assists but still recognising his weakness. They are a better team than us and gets plenty of game time.

To puts things into perspective do you see any current Everton player besides Walcott play like what you are expecting from Vlasic and Lookman. Think you are expecting a little too much at there age and experience and have to look more at positives so they can be built upon. Everton are set up too negatively for these players to flourish and our set up indeed does not need these type of players but more grocks and crossed fingers

 

[Efcjake]

Your on a wind up if you are suggesting senior players have earnt anything in this squad.

Plus the very reason they’re should be allowances made is there youth which invariably means they will be inconsistent.

Managing there playing time should help with consistency. Dropping them from squads after good performances simply demotivates them.

We have screwed this up we just have to hope it’s not too late.

We will see by the standard of clubs that try to sign them if it is too late

Well they must be doing something that the yoofs aren't in order to win the managers trust and the right to start the match.

If the youngsters were doing the business and looked like they would increase our chances of winning points in the manager's opinion then they'd be starting.

It's one thing to make allowances, it's another to guarantee a youngster that he will get to start matches if he doesn't take the opportunities when they're given.

Arsed about what level of club they get linked to. Sandro reportedly had Atletico Madrid after him but there's little chance they'd bother with him now he's shown himself to be a flash in the pan and done naff all for us and Sevilla. By your logic that would make him an ace player, and we have all seen he isn't.

 

[Efcjake]

Ok name a ready made youngster who can defend and attack with equal strength. The main point I am making is we are not utilising there strengths enough because they end up doing more of the defensive side and for that reason are very seldom in a position to show what they can do. I have watched Lookman quite a few times actually and what I do see is him playing to his strength and helping with goals and assists but still recognising his weakness. They are a better team than us and gets plenty of game time.

To puts things into perspective do you see any current Everton player besides Walcott play like what you are expecting from Vlasic and Lookman. Think you are expecting a little too much at there age and experience and have to look more at positives so they can be built upon. Everton are set up too negatively for these players to flourish and our set up indeed does not need these type of players but more grocks and crossed fingers

Kimmich

The game is played without the ball about as much as it is played with it. You can't carry too many passengers who don't put a shift in defending, even the top level attacking players get praise for their workrate out of possession.

I'm expecting that if they're good enough that they will be given the game time they deserve.

These lads aren't getting time in their favoured positions because they haven't earned it in the manager's eyes. If they're obviously better than what's around them then he's not going to not play them simply because they're young.

 

[Efcjake]

Whatever happened to forcing the manager into playing you?

Why does being signed as a young lad for money mean the team has to give you minutes regardless of how much impact you have on the match?

This habit of believing the youngsters are all future superstars is why they've all become little primadonnas before they've actually made the starting 11.

No wonder they all feel sorry for themselves when they've got you lot doing it for them. Get your head down and work your bollocks off to get in the team and if it isn't happening after you put the honest graft in then leave.

How many times have we lost a good player because we didn't play them?

I can't think of any.

You'd think WE were Chelsea who let KDB and Salah go the way some of you are acting as if they have a god given right to minutes on the pitch.

And if they don't have it in their character to stick it out and make a go of it then I'm not bothered

 

[Efcjake]

And just in case anyone tries to be facetious and make out like I'm saying I don't rate Vlasic and Lookman, I do. I just don't think they've shown enough to comfortably say they have the quality to start for us if we want to improve past 7th-8th.

They have promise and should be kept around the squad but neither has convinced me they should start yet.

 

[Simon baker]

Well they must be doing something that the yoofs aren't in order to win the managers trust and the right to start the match.

If the youngsters were doing the business and looked like they would increase our chances of winning points in the manager's opinion then they'd be starting.

It's one thing to make allowances, it's another to guarantee a youngster that he will get to start matches if he doesn't take the opportunities when they're given.

Arsed about what level of club they get linked to. Sandro reportedly had Atletico Madrid after him but there's little chance they'd bother with him now he's shown himself to be a flash in the pan and done naff all for us and Sevilla. By your logic that would make him an ace player, and we have all seen he isn't.

My logic isn’t based upon the sole example of Sandro.

Lookman will have more than one suitor from the 7 teams above us & multiple teams from abroad who I’d consider better than us.

That’s worrying on so many levels.

I do understand part of your argument but ultimately any player who leaves us to go to a better team raises more questions than answers.

How do you know Lookman or vlasic have asked for playing time guarantees is it your belief RB Leipzig have given Lookman that if not why did he leave.

Currently the environment within the club makes it very difficult for you players to reach anywhere close to there potential.

Not a single player has had a good season Pickford at a push, niasse for effort & holgate clearly improved.

If Lookman & vlasic reach anywhere near there potential then aged 25 we would have zero chance of either signing or retaining them.

Currently for at least 2 seasons the best we can hope is to nail 7th and eat into the gap. After that we need a higher calibre of player to kick on these two are very much capable of being in the bracket ability wise so let’s create an environment to facilitate improvement and manage them correctly.

If it doesn’t work out so be it but we have to try, signing players such Bolasie & siggurdson won’t take us any higher than 7th or 6th at a push.

 

[devo85]

It's simple if you apply the bench test.

Would he make the bench of any of the top six?

The answer is no, so therefore he is not good enough.

The scary thing is, if you apply that test to a fair amount of our players you would get the same answer.

 

[Efcjake]

My logic isn’t based upon the sole example of Sandro.

Lookman will have more than one suitor from the 7 teams above us & multiple teams from abroad who I’d consider better than us.

That’s worrying on so many levels.

I do understand part of your argument but ultimately any player who leaves us to go to a better team raises more questions than answers.

How do you know Lookman or vlasic have asked for playing time guarantees is it your belief RB Leipzig have given Lookman that if not why did he leave.

Currently the environment within the club makes it very difficult for you players to reach anywhere close to there potential.

Not a single player has had a good season Pickford at a push, niasse for effort & holgate clearly improved.

If Lookman & vlasic reach anywhere near there potential then aged 25 we would have zero chance of either signing or retaining them.

Currently for at least 2 seasons the best we can hope is to nail 7th and eat into the gap. After that we need a higher calibre of player to kick on these two are very much capable of being in the bracket ability wise so let’s create an environment to facilitate improvement and manage them correctly.

If it doesn’t work out so be it but we have to try, signing players such Bolasie & siggurdson won’t take us any higher than 7th or 6th at a push.

Is Lookman going to start for any of the teams above us?

No, he isn't.

The Sandro example shows your logic isn't worth much.

If Vlasic or Lookman leave us for a better team I am wholly convinced they won't be starting for that team either if they cannot get in ours. I don't see what either have done to convince you otherwise. Lookman isn't even first choice for Leipzig.

The fact that so many of our players have looked poor this year and these two still can't oust them from the squad should be telling you everything. They're not as good as you think they are or they would be playing every week because managers aren't going to leave better players out of the side without a reason.

What is their "potential" though? It's an unknown, we have to deal with how good they are today.

When they've developed enough and reached their potential they will have earned their starting spot. We can't just simply give them one because they might turn out good in three years time. They have to earn the right to play today, just like every other member of the squad does.

You're right that we have to keep taking chances on these young players but we can't guarantee them games on the back of potential, we have to deal with the reality of who is going to make up the best team that gives us the best chance of winning on the day. While their long term development is important do you want it coming in the way of short term improvement?

At the end of the day we all want Everton winning games and the team that gives us the best chance to do that on the field. These lads haven't shown that they're part of our best team yet and so they don't play and I'm fine with that.

If they show they're good enough they will be played.

 

[banno]

Kimmich

The game is played without the ball about as much as it is played with it. You can't carry too many passengers who don't put a shift in defending, even the top level attacking players get praise for their workrate out of possession.

I'm expecting that if they're good enough that they will be given the game time they deserve.

These lads aren't getting time in their favoured positions because they haven't earned it in the manager's eyes. If they're obviously better than what's around them then he's not going to not play them simply because they're young.

The whole Everton team is guilty as charged. The majority of our players are rubbish off the ball, not much good on it either. Lookman and Vlasic would in a more balanced team prosper. They are not the type of players to pull the dross up to better standards though but play more to there strengths as I keep saying and you will see better players. They are still inexperienced off the ball but mate look at the rest of the team off the ball? Watching the ball with the game bypassing them and they are experienced players also.

Not many flair attacking players will get a sniff with an Allardyce type manager so he will always revert to more defensive players (I have said it time and again the more defensive style the less likely to attack or to be precise 'able to attack'). Scenario....Lookman and vlasic helping out the defence and the ball gets hoofed and then it comes back at us. Not the perfect situation for attack minded players. This is why even against lesser opposition we still don't have a great deal of possession. Manager type needs changing for any player in our team to play to strengths. Pickford is about the only player playing to his strengths because he is so busy.

If you don't rate or have the patience for Lookman and Vlasic fair enough but IMO most of us do.

 

[Efcjake]

The whole Everton team is guilty as charged. The majority of our players are rubbish off the ball, not much good on it either. Lookman and Vlasic would in a more balanced team prosper. They are not the type of players to pull the dross up to better standards though but play more to there strengths as I keep saying and you will see better players. They are still inexperienced off the ball but mate look at the rest of the team off the ball? Watching the ball with the game bypassing them and they are experienced players also.

Not many flair attacking players will get a sniff with an Allardyce type manager so he will always revert to more defensive players (I have said it time and again the more defensive style the less likely to attack or to be precise 'able to attack'). Scenario....Lookman and vlasic helping out the defence and the ball gets hoofed and then it comes back at us. Not the perfect situation for attack minded players. This is why even against lesser opposition we still don't have a great deal of possession. Manager type needs changing for any player in our team to play to strengths. Pickford is about the only player playing to his strengths because he is so busy.

If you don't rate or have the patience for Lookman and Vlasic fair enough but IMO most of us do.

How can you guarantee that Lookman and Vlasic would prosper in a more balanced team and not just show the same level of quality that they already have? You can't, you're speculating that.

Judge them on what they've shown you already, not what you assume they could do.

Let's not pretend that Rooney, Walcott, Bolasie, and Tosun are defending first type players. They aren't, they're attackers as well but they offer more on the defensive side than Lookman or Vlasic and so they get picked ahead of them because that is what makes the team more balanced.

I've not said that I don't rate either of them, I do. I just don't rate them based on what they could be but instead on what they have been.

I'm willing to extend patience and understand that they aren't the finished article yet, but until they show they're offering more than what our starters do to the manager they're not going to be starting.

 

[Kenshin]

The OS says he's started 9 matches and another 17 off the bench, close enough for me to your 10 full games for me to say I'm not wholly convinced he will hack it for us. He's shown flashes of what he is capable of but he still makes poor decisions on the ball and doesn't do enough to cover his full back.

Vlasic hasn't had as much time as Lookman so the jury is still out on him for me but Lookman has shown that he has a lot of work to do on his game if he is going to reach the level some foresee of him here.

12 months ago we had just taken an 18 year old from league one to the premier league. The lad Is 19, played first team football for 2 years at most and most of that was 2 divisions lower than where we are.

On average players can play to 34-35 ish, so that gives lookman on average a career of 17 years?

And you say he isn't good enough within the first 2? He is still learning the game, still has to develop physically and has roughly 10 years before he hits his prime.

He never played because no manager here this season had the balls to take a chance on him. The lad Is quality, I expect he will be playing at the top level in around 6 years time. Probably not with us but I can hope that it is

Point is, I can name a whole list of players who weren't good enough as you put it at the same age. All of them would have walked into our team or certainly still would do. Imagine a spurs fan saying that 19 year old kane who couldn't cut it in the championship should be moved on? Imagine United fans saying that Ronaldo was a show pony at 19 with no end product? Or that Didier drogba who struggled to make it in the lower French leagues until he was at least 24, kante who was nowhere near playing at the top level and no-one had heard of. Perhaps Baines who we released out the academy?

The list goes on and on.

You can't write a player off at 19 with little experience and a manager who Won t give him a chance to actually improve.

Plus it's ridiculous to compare him to players here 10 years older than him when they haven't performed either.