2017/18 Nikola Vlasic

[Efcjake]

But that's the point, judging him now! The lad has little experience at any level so he might not be the finished article but he shouldn't be judged as one.

If he's not good enough at the moment then he shouldn't be starting. I'm not saying he never will be good enough but we have to live in the present and in the present he's not showing that he's that much better than our other players to our manager. He very well might be when he becomes that finished product but we are in the business of winning football matches and the manager has a responsibility to put the best team out there capable of doing that. If he feels these lads aren't a part of that team then it is entirely up to them to force him to change his mind.

He might be defensively weak, 2 years ago he was playing youth team football where that didn't matter. He might not be experienced but he can't get experience on the training ground.

Right, so he goes out on loan or accepts that he is a squad player until he earns the starting spot.

I have said this recently, the likes of him vlasic Davies etc shouldn't be commanding first team places but they should be given chances to earn one. 20 minutes off the bench can turn a game for us and give him time to adapt to the league except he couldn't wait to get away. Vlasic seems desperate to get away, sandro got away, there is a connection there, lack of game time.

Exactly my point mate. They shouldn't be commanding starting spots and should be happy with 20 minutes off the bench until they earn it.

If they've not got the patience for it then that's their decision but we shouldn't have to play these kids unless they've earned it.

People losing their minds over us letting Sandro go to Sevilla despite the fact that he was offering nothing to us. He's no loss.

And you mention managers choosing more senior players for reasons. One was sacked, another is about to be sacked and unsworth wasn't up to it. How can the judgement of sacked managers justify why these talented players don't get a game when clearly their judgement has lost them their job?

What about the judgment of the Leipzig manager who has also decided that Lookman isn't ready to start matches? I suppose his judgment is poor also?

All 3 managers we've had have been desperate for results, do you not agree that if these lads were better than what's around them that they'd get played ahead of them?

Some coincidence that 3 managers all desperate for results decided their best chances lay elsewhere.

 

[Efcjake]

It has been said COUNTLESS times that certain managers choose "experience" over everything. They "trust" experience. Even if that lets them down time after time after time at the expense of youth.

And on that last part, umm, SURE seem to fix Schneiderlein who was sent home from training for being an absolute unit.

Ok, any evidence that this is why Lookman and Vlasic aren't starting games or is this just more speculation?

 

[TheBlueGibbon]

Ok, any evidence that this is why Lookman and Vlasic aren't starting games or is this just more speculation?

Allardyce insists the young winger could not have stopped the Blues being thumped 5-1 at the Emirates Stadium saying: “No.

“I've got Yannick Bolasie who cost thirty million quid and Theo Walcott who cost twenty million quid and both have a lot more experience than Lookman, so no.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...ngry-sam-allardyce-dismisses-ademola-14243380

 

[Efcjake]

I apologize if I'm making the impressions that Vlasic DESERVES to play or that he has been stellar but benched. But it's been a bit weird with a lot of youth this year. Holgate was probably our best defender until he pushed Big Tooth in to the stands. Vlasic was MoTM and then hasn't been seen until recently.

When we have seen the unadulterated crap that we have seen this year it begs the simple question of "can they really be THAT much worse?"


And, for the record, I completely think Vlasic has that *thing. He was a full blooded international for a team that made the World Cup, only to come here and be benched over the complete mediocrity we have at the moment.

I've not seen enough from Vlasic over most of his appearances this season to justify a starting spot right now. I am all for keeping him and Lookman around the squad.

I just feel like players should be handed starting spots based on their ability today and not because they may potentially become better two years from now.

It isn't about them being that much worse, if they're worse at all then they shouldn't be playing and if they need game time for their development and aren't good enough currently to get it here then they can go on loan.

If they're not happy with biding their time and earning their starting spot or going out on loan then let the door smack their arse on the way out because they obviously don't care about playing for us.

 

[ClausThomsen]

For example Harry Kane. He was a very average young striker going back what, 4 years ago? Couldn't get into championship teams like Leicester when they were coming up. You could argue that a top player even at 19/20 should be ripping the pitch up ala arguments against vlasic lookman Davies etc . Yet spurs have him a game and he scored, so they gave him more chances and he kept scoring, and 4 years or so later he has been top scorer 2 years in a row only being stopped again by salah.

So the point of all that is, if spurs had treated him at that age the way we treat our youngsters then lane may not have even got that chance to break through. Same as Rashford at United, sterling at Liverpool etc. I'm not saying that Davis Lookman all the rest will be as good as Harry Kane but if we don't give them opportunities then how are we going to know and why would they want to stay here?

Harry Kane didn't just get a game, score, and then become a first team regular. He spent a lot of time skirting around the first team, making cup and Europa appearances and the like. And in any case when he came into the team he produced and thus earned more chances - Vlasic and Lookman aren't there yet. Davies did and has played a considerable number of games since.

Kane also got his first real run in the side when Spurs had pretty much no other forwards. This is following the likes of Adebayor and Soldado being sacked off. If deals for players hadn't fell through then there's a chance Kane might have been waiting longer.

And this kind of reasoning also entirely discounts what these players are looking like in training and how hard they're working on their game. I'd be willing to wager a hefty sum that Kane worked his backside off working on that first touch, his first yard and his movement to make up for his relative lack of pace - are our young players working as hard on their weaknesses?

 

[Simon baker]

If he's not good enough at the moment then he shouldn't be starting. I'm not saying he never will be good enough but we have to live in the present and in the present he's not showing that he's that much better than our other players to our manager. He very well might be when he becomes that finished product but we are in the business of winning football matches and the manager has a responsibility to put the best team out there capable of doing that. If he feels these lads aren't a part of that team then it is entirely up to them to force him to change his mind.


Right, so he goes out on loan or accepts that he is a squad player until he earns the starting spot.


Exactly my point mate. They shouldn't be commanding starting spots and should be happy with 20 minutes off the bench until they earn it.

If they've not got the patience for it then that's their decision but we shouldn't have to play these kids unless they've earned it.

People losing their minds over us letting Sandro go to Sevilla despite the fact that he was offering nothing to us. He's no loss.






What about the judgment of the Leipzig manager who has also decided that Lookman isn't ready to start matches? I suppose his judgment is poor also?

All 3 managers we've had have been desperate for results, do you not agree that if these lads were better than what's around them that they'd get played ahead of them?

Some coincidence that 3 managers all desperate for results decided their best chances lay elsewhere.

Hasn’t he started 6 games for Leipzig and 4 as as sub. That’s must be involvement in almost every squad he has been available for with minutes in almost every game.

That’s what he should getting at us a place in every squad & minutes in the majority of games.

By the way you do know they are a much superior team to us don’t you.

 

[Efcjake]

Allardyce insists the young winger could not have stopped the Blues being thumped 5-1 at the Emirates Stadium saying: “No.

“I've got Yannick Bolasie who cost thirty million quid and Theo Walcott who cost twenty million quid and both have a lot more experience than Lookman, so no.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...ngry-sam-allardyce-dismisses-ademola-14243380

He finished that off by saying

"If you had put him out there he wouldn't have done any better than the rest because the whole team played crap."

If he went with experience automatically over ability then why isn't Williams still playing every match?

He's very experienced.

 

[Efcjake]

Hasn’t he started 6 games for Leipzig and 4 as as sub. That’s must be involvement in almost every squad he has been available for with minutes in almost every game.

That’s what he should getting at us a place in every squad & minutes in the majority of games.

By the way you do know they are a much superior team to us don’t you.

And he's been named as a sub 3 times and not got on the pitch.

He's been on the bench more than he's started.

Since he's been there he's played 512 minutes in 10 appearances.

We gave him 591 minutes in 16 appearances this season. He's not exactly played that much more.

 

[Simon baker]

And he's been named as a sub 3 times and not got on the pitch.

He's been on the bench more than he's started.

Since he's been there he's played 512 minutes in 10 appearances.

We gave him 591 minutes in 16 appearances this season. He's not exactly played that much more.

Its 6 starts 4 sub according to soccer base & it’s involvment in every squad.
From memory he was left out of multiple squads with us & in my opinion often unjustly.

 

[Azzurri]

Needs a loan, probably in the championship.

Although a new manager might change things, he’s not good enough at the moment. I think that’s clear.

 

[banno]

How can you guarantee that Lookman and Vlasic would prosper in a more balanced team and not just show the same level of quality that they already have? You can't, you're speculating that.

Judge them on what they've shown you already, not what you assume they could do.

Let's not pretend that Rooney, Walcott, Bolasie, and Tosun are defending first type players. They aren't, they're attackers as well but they offer more on the defensive side than Lookman or Vlasic and so they get picked ahead of them because that is what makes the team more balanced.

I've not said that I don't rate either of them, I do. I just don't rate them based on what they could be but instead on what they have been.

I'm willing to extend patience and understand that they aren't the finished article yet, but until they show they're offering more than what our starters do to the manager they're not going to be starting.

I have seen enough of Lookman is already proving a dangerous player in a better team in Germany.

I have seen enough of Vlasic to feel he deserves more time

Tosun, Rooney, Walcott and Bolasie are not the defending type of players I agree...so why are they defending so much and not linking up up front.


If you don't rate them on what you have seen so far how do you rate the rest of the team? I don't rate many at all in the Everton team and that's why we are here looking at Vlasic and Lookman to see if they can be better because we are not happy with who we have presently. They haven't been given enough time compared to others who have and have not shown enough.

Lookman has shown me enough to know he would flourish in a better balanced team as proven in Germany. Not the finished article but a dangerous buggar when played to what he does best. Get the shackles off him and a few others at Everton and they will be better.

Saying Rooney and Bolasie get picked over Lookman and Vlasic because they create a more balanced team because they defend better give me a chuckle. Bolasie and Rooney cannot defend and they certainly don't give balance to the team, they are part of the problem and why people are calling for Vlasic and Lookman to be given some time. The team is unbalanced because defence is the only thing on the agenda and the rest is adhoc. We lose the ball and it's all hands to the pump to get behind the ball and sure up the defence. We boot the ball up front to Tosun and he is supposed to beat 2 or 3 players to the ball and hold it up and sit on it while the likes of Bolasie and Rooney are coming rapidly out of the defensive duties....that is unbalanced to me. All our midfield players are lost because they haven't a clue where they are meant to be so they mainly sit back to be safe. The manager has made us a mess. Someone has to come in and get the midfield working further up the pitch and penning the other team in rather than being penned in ourselves.

 

[Efcjake]

If you don't rate them on what you have seen so far how do you rate the rest of the team?

Not too highly at all but better than these two. I think Lookman could have offered more than Bolasie at times but not for how this manager wanted to play. He's still not quite at the standard we need to push on from here though yet and so I think he shouldn't really be starting yet until he shows he's not so much of a liability off of the ball. Vlasic is better in that are but he's not effective enough at the moment and having any sort of impact on matches. They're good players but we need better to kick on from 8th place.

I agree that we're playing far too defensively but we've had to because our defenders are crap and need that protection from the deeper midfield line. It is Sam's preferred style of play but this defence is crap and mega vulnerable to the counter all the time and to balance that out we've had to drop so deep. Think back to before Sam came in.

We were a mess before this manager came in but a less successful one.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I didn't say he will never be good enough lad. I said he's not shown he's good enough to the managers we've had to earn and keep a starting spot. I don't see why that's so controversial. He's not done it at Leipzig neither.

I agree he has a lot of time to develop, but he needs to develop more than what he has because where he's at right now still isn't good enough at the moment to demand a starting spot or he'd have been given one.



I disagree, he hasn't played that much because he's not shown that he's good enough to at the moment. Again, if he was that boss he would be starting every week for Leipzig.

I guess their manager doesn't have any balls either then.


Mate, you're shadow boxing here. I've never said he should be moved on. I just disagree with the assertion that he should be starting games automatically because of his potential. You win a starting spot based on your ability today, not how good you might be tomorrow.

Please go back and find a post where I said we should be getting rid of either. You've just thrown a strawman argument up there which completely misrepresents my argument.

United fans did think Ronaldo was too much of a show pony at first. So did Alex Ferguson and he told him so and started playing him more once he started using that skill to have a greater impact on the result of the match.

But well done for making those points even though they had absolutely nothing to do with what I've said.



Again, I'm not writing him off. I'm judging his ability today and saying he isn't ready to start games in the opinion of our managers while they feel more senior players are for whatever reasons.

I dont get all the crap on here about these young lads. Its either they start every game or they get no game time at all. Like there's ni inbetween.

 

[Efcjake]

I dont get all the crap on here about these young lads. Its either they start every game or they get no game time at all. Like there's ni inbetween.

They're all in a rush to get their move to Utd, City, or Chelsea after jibbing us off.

 

[Barnfred 55]

They're all in a rush to get their move to Utd, City, or Chelsea after jibbing us off.

Are you referrring to the players because I was talking about posters.

People seem to think our young players are either rubbish or brilliant, when in reality they're just young players that need developing.

We as a club need to decide whether we should be the tram to develop them, or let other teams develop them and we buy the finished article. If we do the latter, we will never be able to attract the top players because they will be outside our price range. If we do the former we have to accept that we will have players in our squad not ready to start premier games regularly,, but if we manage their game time effectively ut should not effect the team performance too much .