2017/18 Nikola Vlasic

[riddick]

Why are both of these players supposed to be guaranteed playing time?

Should they not have to earn it like the senior members of the squad have to?

If they were better options than what else was available then they would be starting matches. They aren't and so they don't.

Lookman was getting some starts and some sub appearances for us this year but obviously Sam felt that Bolasie was the safer option for his style of play.

Why do the players not appear to bear any responsibility for failing to do enough to convince the managers they should be starting? It appears that all responsibility for their development and improvement is on the club and not on the individual.

Who of the senior team "earns" it? Schneiderlein who played completely and utterly terrible for 90% of the year? Siggurdsson who was anonymous most of this year? Williams? Boalsie?

You keep saying that Vlasic needs to "earn" playing time but don't acknowledge it doesn't seem that playing time is earned by merit.

 

[Simon baker]

Is Lookman going to start for any of the teams above us?

No, he isn't.

The Sandro example shows your logic isn't worth much.

If Vlasic or Lookman leave us for a better team I am wholly convinced they won't be starting for that team either if they cannot get in ours. I don't see what either have done to convince you otherwise. Lookman isn't even first choice for Leipzig.

The fact that so many of our players have looked poor this year and these two still can't oust them from the squad should be telling you everything. They're not as good as you think they are or they would be playing every week because managers aren't going to leave better players out of the side without a reason.

What is their "potential" though? It's an unknown, we have to deal with how good they are today.

When they've developed enough and reached their potential they will have earned their starting spot. We can't just simply give them one because they might turn out good in three years time. They have to earn the right to play today, just like every other member of the squad does.

You're right that we have to keep taking chances on these young players but we can't guarantee them games on the back of potential, we have to deal with the reality of who is going to make up the best team that gives us the best chance of winning on the day. While their long term development is important do you want it coming in the way of short term improvement?

At the end of the day we all want Everton winning games and the team that gives us the best chance to do that on the field. These lads haven't shown that they're part of our best team yet and so they don't play and I'm fine with that.

If they show they're good enough they will be played.

I’m not suggesting they start I’m suggesting they are no worse than the rubbish we have had to watch week in week out this season.

Yet haven’t played enough or been coached correctly to iron out there minor flaws.

The experienced players have had numerous chances and continually fail & let us down yet continue to play over these two who are often bombed out of the squad.

 

[Efcjake]

12 months ago we had just taken an 18 year old from league one to the premier league. The lad Is 19, played first team football for 2 years at most and most of that was 2 divisions lower than where we are.

On average players can play to 34-35 ish, so that gives lookman on average a career of 17 years?

And you say he isn't good enough within the first 2? He is still learning the game, still has to develop physically and has roughly 10 years before he hits his prime.

I didn't say he will never be good enough lad. I said he's not shown he's good enough to the managers we've had to earn and keep a starting spot. I don't see why that's so controversial. He's not done it at Leipzig neither.

I agree he has a lot of time to develop, but he needs to develop more than what he has because where he's at right now still isn't good enough at the moment to demand a starting spot or he'd have been given one.

He never played because no manager here this season had the balls to take a chance on him. The lad Is quality, I expect he will be playing at the top level in around 6 years time. Probably not with us but I can hope that it is

I disagree, he hasn't played that much because he's not shown that he's good enough to at the moment. Again, if he was that boss he would be starting every week for Leipzig.

I guess their manager doesn't have any balls either then.

Point is, I can name a whole list of players who weren't good enough as you put it at the same age. All of them would have walked into our team or certainly still would do. Imagine a spurs fan saying that 19 year old kane who couldn't cut it in the championship should be moved on? Imagine United fans saying that Ronaldo was a show pony at 19 with no end product? Or that Didier drogba who struggled to make it in the lower French leagues until he was at least 24, kante who was nowhere near playing at the top level and no-one had heard of. Perhaps Baines who we released out the academy?

Mate, you're shadow boxing here. I've never said he should be moved on. I just disagree with the assertion that he should be starting games automatically because of his potential. You win a starting spot based on your ability today, not how good you might be tomorrow.

Please go back and find a post where I said we should be getting rid of either. You've just thrown a strawman argument up there which completely misrepresents my argument.

United fans did think Ronaldo was too much of a show pony at first. So did Alex Ferguson and he told him so and started playing him more once he started using that skill to have a greater impact on the result of the match.

But well done for making those points even though they had absolutely nothing to do with what I've said.

The list goes on and on.

You can't write a player off at 19 with little experience and a manager who Won t give him a chance to actually improve.

Plus it's ridiculous to compare him to players here 10 years older than him when they haven't performed either.

Again, I'm not writing him off. I'm judging his ability today and saying he isn't ready to start games in the opinion of our managers while they feel more senior players are for whatever reasons.

 

[Efcjake]

I’m not suggesting they start I’m suggesting they are no worse than the rubbish we have had to watch week in week out this season.

Yet haven’t played enough or been coached correctly to iron out there minor flaws.

The experienced players have had numerous chances and continually fail & let us down yet continue to play over these two who are often bombed out of the squad.

I'd suggest that they are worse than the rubbish we have seen this season or the manager would have no reason to leave them out.

 

[Simon baker]

I'd suggest that they are worse than the rubbish we have seen this season or the manager would have no reason to leave them out.

Like Lookman in the derby

 

[longers]

I'd suggest that they are worse than the rubbish we have seen this season or the manager would have no reason to leave them out.

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in our last three managers decision making given they have all been utterly dreadful at their job.

 

[Efcjake]

Who of the senior team "earns" it? Schneiderlein who played completely and utterly terrible for 90% of the year? Siggurdsson who was anonymous most of this year? Williams? Boalsie?

You keep saying that Vlasic needs to "earn" playing time but don't acknowledge it doesn't seem that playing time is earned by merit.

In the eyes of the manager they're offering something that he isn't getting from Vlasic and Lookman.

Just because it doesn't seem to you that they haven't earned their starting spot doesn't mean they haven't. Forgive me mate but you're not at Finch Farm every day working with these lads.

If they were better than the other players, as you want to contend, then he would play them. There's no reason not to play them if they're good enough.

What manager is going to leave better players on the bench and ruin his chances of success?

Do you honestly think Koeman or Sam would be leaving them on the bench or out of the squad if he thought they'd increase our chances of a result?

We've had 3 managers this season and neither of the two has obviously impressed any of them enough to win and keep a starting spot when other members of the squad have. They must not be doing something that the others are because they've had three different men to try and impress and failed to do so each time.

 

[riddick]

I'd suggest that they are worse than the rubbish we have seen this season or the manager would have no reason to leave them out.

That's absolutely daft. You CAN'T think that seriously, can you? "Cenk needs to get used to the cold". "Rooney and Gylfi can't play together"

Countless others. Phil fn Neville played for about 3 years longer with us than he should have because he was the gaffers mate. Diabolical showings from Williams meant nothing.

 

[riddick]

In the eyes of the manager they're offering something that he isn't getting from Vlasic and Lookman.

Just because it doesn't seem to you that they haven't earned their starting spot doesn't mean they haven't. Forgive me mate but you're not at Finch Farm every day working with these lads.

If they were better than the other players, as you want to contend, then he would play them. There's no reason not to play them if they're good enough.

What manager is going to leave better players on the bench and ruin his chances of success?

Do you honestly think Koeman or Sam would be leaving them on the bench or out of the squad if he thought they'd increase our chances of a result?

We've had 3 managers this season and neither of the two has obviously impressed any of them enough to win and keep a starting spot when other members of the squad have. They must not be doing something that the others are because they've had three different men to try and impress and failed to do so each time.

Who cares what they do at Finch Farm if they are shown to be completely disinterested/useless/completely error prone during the 90 minutes when it actually counts??

 

[Kenshin]

I didn't say he will never be good enough lad. I said he's not shown he's good enough to the managers we've had to earn and keep a starting spot. I don't see why that's so controversial. He's not done it at Leipzig neither.

I agree he has a lot of time to develop, but he needs to develop more than what he has because where he's at right now still isn't good enough at the moment to demand a starting spot or he'd have been given one.



I disagree, he hasn't played that much because he's not shown that he's good enough to at the moment. Again, if he was that boss he would be starting every week for Leipzig.

I guess their manager doesn't have any balls either then.


Mate, you're shadow boxing here. I've never said he should be moved on. I just disagree with the assertion that he should be starting games automatically because of his potential. You win a starting spot based on your ability today, not how good you might be tomorrow.

Please go back and find a post where I said we should be getting rid of either. You've just thrown a strawman argument up there which completely misrepresents my argument.

United fans did think Ronaldo was too much of a show pony at first. So did Alex Ferguson and he told him so and started playing him more once he started using that skill to have a greater impact on the result of the match.

But well done for making those points even though they had absolutely nothing to do with what I've said.



Again, I'm not writing him off. I'm judging his ability today and saying he isn't ready to start games in the opinion of our managers while they feel more senior players are for whatever reasons.

But that's the point, judging him now! The lad has little experience at any level so he might not be the finished article but he shouldn't be judged as one.

He might be defensively weak, 2 years ago he was playing youth team football where that didn't matter. He might not be experienced but he can't get experience on the training ground.

I have said this recently, the likes of him vlasic Davies etc shouldn't be commanding first team places but they should be given chances to earn one. 20 minutes off the bench can turn a game for us and give him time to adapt to the league except he couldn't wait to get away. Vlasic seems desperate to get away, sandro got away, there is a connection there, lack of game time.

And you mention managers choosing more senior players for reasons. One was sacked, another is about to be sacked and unsworth wasn't up to it. How can the judgement of sacked managers justify why these talented players don't get a game when clearly their judgement has lost them their job?

 

[Efcjake]

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in our last three managers decision making given they have all been utterly dreadful at their job.

I just see a pattern of these lads failing to impress 3 different managers who were all desperate for results.

If they had done the business for us in the opportunities they were given and increased the chances of getting these managers a result then they would have been kept in the team. They clearly haven't done enough compared to others or they'd have their starting spot on merit.

 

[Efcjake]

That's absolutely daft. You CAN'T think that seriously, can you? "Cenk needs to get used to the cold". "Rooney and Gylfi can't play together"

Countless others. Phil fn Neville played for about 3 years longer with us than he should have because he was the gaffers mate. Diabolical showings from Williams meant nothing.

Yes I can seriously think that. If the managers thought they were going to do better than the rubbish they've put out then they would play instead.

Why wouldn't they? Do you think they're not playing these lads out of spite or resentment for their youth?

What manager, especially the ones we've had who have been desperate for results, is not going to play a player he believes gives him a better chance of winning matches?

If the 3 managers we had thought they were better than the rubbish they've played then they would have played ahead of them. It isn't complicated stuff mate.

Why would a manager willingly choose to leave his better players out of the squad? Nobody does this unless the players have been acting like unprofessional knobheads. If you're good enough you play.

 

[Efcjake]

Who cares what they do at Finch Farm if they are shown to be completely disinterested/useless/completely error prone during the 90 minutes when it actually counts??

Obviously the matches have to be taken into account but the point is we don't get the full picture that the manager gets.

They've not been that impressive in the matches they have played.

 

[riddick]

Yes I can seriously think that. If the managers thought they were going to do better than the rubbish they've put out then they would play instead.

Why wouldn't they? Do you think they're not playing these lads out of spite or resentment for their youth?

What manager, especially the ones we've had who have been desperate for results, is not going to play a player he believes gives him a better chance of winning matches?

If the 3 managers we had thought they were better than the rubbish they've played then they would have played ahead of them. It isn't complicated stuff mate.

Why would a manager willingly choose to leave his better players out of the squad? Nobody does this unless the players have been acting like unprofessional knobheads. If you're good enough you play.

It has been said COUNTLESS times that certain managers choose "experience" over everything. They "trust" experience. Even if that lets them down time after time after time at the expense of youth.

And on that last part, umm, SURE seem to fix Schneiderlein who was sent home from training for being an absolute unit.

 

[riddick]

Obviously the matches have to be taken into account but the point is we don't get the full picture that the manager gets.

They've not been that impressive in the matches they have played.

I apologize if I'm making the impressions that Vlasic DESERVES to play or that he has been stellar but benched. But it's been a bit weird with a lot of youth this year. Holgate was probably our best defender until he pushed Big Tooth in to the stands. Vlasic was MoTM and then hasn't been seen until recently.

When we have seen the unadulterated crap that we have seen this year it begs the simple question of "can they really be THAT much worse?"


And, for the record, I completely think Vlasic has that *thing. He was a full blooded international for a team that made the World Cup, only to come here and be benched over the complete mediocrity we have at the moment.