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Permission to still like Dyche?

I still hes gotten way too much flak over the time hes been here for stuff not under his control and hes done fine, but the last match was brutal. Its obviously on the players first, but leaving an exhausted Tim in and bringing on Doucoure was a disaster, leading to what has to be one of the biggest premier league collapses ever. Now is it a pattern, or a one off that drives the team to play well the rest of the season. 85 minutes of pure domination that didnt end up meaning a thing.

Where we go from here is really about if he learns from it and: starts Ndiaye, never plays Doucoure gain, and lets the newer players play. We saw last year that he is a bit stubborn but in the end seems to always change(which other managers dont). Whether he sees out this year may be based on that, I never thought he was going to get a contract beyond it.
 
I was going to post that I keep scan reading this thread title as requesting permission to kill Sean Dyche…

But then I searched the thread and found this wasn’t an original thought.

Every time I see this topic, at first glimpse it reads "permission to kill Dyche". 😕

For a moment there i thought the op was looking for permission to kill Dyche.
 
I dunno. We are all wise after the event. Was it really so bad to take Ndiaye off with 8 minutes to go and put Doucoure on for a bit more energy in midfiled? If he hadn't and Ndiaye had got injured we would all be calling him out for not resting him 'as the game was dead?' The truth is that the collapse was down to the players who switched off for the first goal and then shat themselves for the 8 minutes following that. They weren't brilliantly crafted goals, they were routine crosses into the box that should have been dealt with (had we not panicked). When that mentality sets in (players just hoofing the ball away only for it to come straight back rather than keeping possession/killing any momentum) it's hard to combat with only 8 minutes to do so.
Good reply that. Logical. Very hard being an Everton fan lately.
 

Thanks mate!

The problem with the Dyche debate and we are all a bit guilty of this is a preconception and what ever happens good or bad our bias is confirmed and we run with that. I find your first two paragraphs as evidance of that. Saturdays performance is binary its both good and bad. The bad is on Dyche, but the good is despite of him - that's just not accurate and evidential of what i said preceding about bias.

Allow me to reframe perhaps the players posting a good performance despite Dyche, is Dyche actually targeting and working with the DOF to build a side - maybe he picked Tim maybe he picked Ndaiye and all the other new signings to take the side forward and transition from the one dimensional squad of players he inherited and build to compliment and bring the best out of other players - that was on show on Saturday. The result was for the first time in years Everton had another good football playing team pinned back in their own half for 98% of a game - i cant remember the last time we had the ability of players to do that. We moved on from one dimension - get crosses in the box and had threat coming from left, right and centrally - with great penetration through the central channel. Did everyone wake up in the morning and decide for that to happen - no its building and planning like i said. There are green shoots there is you care to see them, they were there on Sat, they will continue to grow and we have other new signings and players returning from injury to compliment the taster we got. People are choosing not so see or ackonwelgde all of that - there is a building process going on and that is boom and bust and a process. Do you get a kick in the gut manageing change - always.

I think Dyche is right to lay some of the blame on the players - the whole group takes collective responsibility including him and he will reflect on what happened. For me its a mentality breakdown and id rocket all of our players on the back of it - he made the point before the game that this group have climbed the mountain of attitude and mentality and then retunred to the bottom of it since the season started - if im critiuqing him i think that has disarmed him and surprised him and he needs to get on top of it - he will - why? Because hes taken some of these surrender monkeys and made them a tough team hard to beat before - when they were wet wipes under previous two managers. He takes some of the blame of course - hes currently the front for the club, he's rolled out in front of media - for everything - so he takes the heat. But hes right id go through a team of U12 on the basics of the game - if they did what happened on Saturday - its park football stuff - so you expect a group of professional footballers to manage a game form the point we were at. We can talk about Subs all you like and hindsight is great, if we made 5 and lost people would be berating him now saying he should have left it - everyone is wiser after. Besides if nothing else this team has proved under him that it can be disciplined and manage a game to get a result and get an outcome - Saturday was a 1 in million fluke prob never to be repeated. Part of management is trusting those you have charged to do a job, if i fail to do that job thats on me - a manager takes some of that heat - but if i haven't performed competently to achieve an outcome - then the manager rightly eat me - that true in all walks of life.

Im not going to lie my sights have been raised, weirdly even more so after Saturday, i spent all year last year - saying we have really poor players and a threadbare squad, i think we have improved that - so if our previous squad can post a points total for 12th i see no reason why we cant par that or better it - my expectations have actually been raised. Realistically though I think that will be incremental progress while transitioning the style of play and managing that change. In terms of expectations and him playing them down - every thing i said in my previous post is true - we aren't a well run - stable club - we have severe limits and competing with the Spurs and Brighton's who are spending many multiples of what we can, even our rivals for 10/12th.

What we are trying to do is recover the footballing side of that and counter the advantages others have by pushing the glass boundary of limits. That is a process of change - we made incredible progress last year from the one before to get a points total for 12th and it needs to take an incremental step again. But its important to acknowledge that the club is still in crisis and the severe limits we are working through - its a really tough job systemically, so expectations need to be realistic. The systemic piece and instability around the club isn't acknowledged enough. I dont think its mentioned once in the Dyche thread - prob bar from me.

If im being very honest, i dont think many people are annoyed with Dyche, they are annoyed with Everton - hes just the figure head now and the lightening rod, there is no Kenwright, no board, no visible owner to vent at - the only one who has fronted for a year and half is Dyche and now hes the conduit - wrongly in my opinion. People aren’t really fed up with Dyche they are fed up with malaise of the club, he’s fronted that with others who deserve more blame hiding behind him and fans are just exercising agency in something they feel the can influence - they are fed up with the lot at Everton.

When people talk of ambition - as i say they talk of the end point - why do we deserve - to be in the top 6, or avoid relegation or not have to earn our place in this league - we absolutely deserve to be in the position we are in - we absolutely messed up the club and we dont deserve anymore. There is nothing in deciding to be ambitious, or in ripping up stability again that going to turn the after burners on and get us right up the table tomorrow - its turning around an oil tanker and a mutli year project, sacking the captain every six weeks just makes the ships journey longer and steers it to rocky waters.

As i evidance above - most cant see the plan and are hazed by three results - let me be illustrative - we have turned over almost all the high earning wasteful players at the club, we have brought in 8 players to transition the play, make the squad deeper, give us variance and give us tools to attack and dominate a game - we saw that on Saturday - change always brings risk and we saw that with the system failure on Saturday, in hindsight could the team and manager have done better - definitely - but that is also an opportunity to process and for reflection reflection and growth. Saturday was the first time for years we brought a good footballing side to Goodision and pinned them back and dominated the game, the first time we have seen flair and threat in years and there was air of change in the air up until the crash.

We need to build on the above, refine make it stronger and better - we know these players can see games out and get results we know he can build resilience - we are seeing a transition now to making us more dangerous - that needs nurturing not ripping up - the last thing this club needs is more instability and the beginning of another - new project.

Again i will say this, ambition is fine everyone has a vision, its a common every day occurrence - very few know what steps, work and risk are involved in selling it and achieving it - i see it in what we are trying to do.

As for expectations and ambition - you get what you deserve, we dont deserve to be anymore then what we are at the moment and i dont know why people think we should - that's not, not having ambition or standard - its realistic appraisal that the performance holistically at the club has been so bad for so long and continues to be- we are actually very lucky to be in the league at all. Acknowledging that isn't not having ambition its an acknowledgement of the ground zero we need to build on to raise standards and show ambition - as i say in my illustration above - we have a plan and we saw it for much of Saturday and you know what - there is more to come, with lads coming back and more players to be integrated. All thats required in patience and as always in football fandom that in short supply.
Sorry for the late reply man, I took a much needed break from EFC and feel better for it!

A lot of good points here tbf though I do think many of us have managed to separate our feelings about the manager from our feelings about the club's mismanagement. I've been behind Dyche for much of his tenure though I reeeeally did not want him. Think he's proven me wrong and he suited the job that needed doing. There comes a time though when the clean slate at the beginning of the season should be just that and I just don't hear the same level of talking down about their respective players and club from other managers.
I'm not convinced he's transitioning us to anything new but I would absolutely love it to be wrong. If that performance pre-collapse is Dyche's doing and not Ndiaye's positivity being contagious then I'll need convincing. Would any of us be suprised if we were to see NDiaye passing backwards more than not soon? I think it more likely that Dyche learns from the collapse to be even more defensive than the obvious 'don't sub off your most effective players when others are dead on their feet.'
It remains to be seen anyway but his passing on of responsibility and zero self criticism has put me off him big time and tolerating him is about as much as I can manage for the near future.
You were 100% right though about one thing, when saying a lot of the fume was born out of frustration. It feels good to step back and get a bit more perspective but Dyche, though not completely inept from a distance, is still far from impressive for a top tier manager.
 
It's like some people have only just realised Sean Dyche is manager at Everton.

Dyche has his way of managing a club and won't change, I would have thought
people would have understood that after he managing the club for nearly two years.

I think we will be mid table this season, the question is if that is good enough to get him a contract extension ?

As we still don't know who will own the club at the end of the season, if indeed there is a new owner by then , it is impossible to have any idea of what his future is.
 
I still hes gotten way too much flak over the time hes been here for stuff not under his control and hes done fine, but the last match was brutal. Its obviously on the players first, but leaving an exhausted Tim in and bringing on Doucoure was a disaster, leading to what has to be one of the biggest premier league collapses ever. Now is it a pattern, or a one off that drives the team to play well the rest of the season. 85 minutes of pure domination that didnt end up meaning a thing.

Where we go from here is really about if he learns from it and: starts Ndiaye, never plays Doucoure gain, and lets the newer players play. We saw last year that he is a bit stubborn but in the end seems to always change(which other managers dont). Whether he sees out this year may be based on that, I never thought he was going to get a contract beyond it.
I'm not convinced the whole collapse was on Doucoure.😂

What about the full backs waltzed past at ease, no headers or marking from any other defenders and the rest of the midfield strolling back in treacle as the Bournemouth midfield sprinted past them.

We would be in the championship now without Doucoure. So a bit of respect is needed even if does need phasing out.

It's a big ask for Ndaiye to keep up that level of performance.
 

I'm not convinced the whole collapse was on Doucoure.😂

What about the full backs waltzed past at ease, no headers or marking from any other defenders and the rest of the midfield strolling back in treacle as the Bournemouth midfield sprinted past them.

We would be in the championship now without Doucoure. So a bit of respect is needed even if does need phasing out.

It's a big ask for Ndaiye to keep up that level of performance.
Oh, I dont put it all on Doucoure, but Doucoure kept killing attacks, Tim was exhausted and should have been subbed, and our full backs + Keane couldnt handle it.

We took off an effective attacker and that hurt us, and Dyche didnt sub Tim and that literally cost multiple goals. You can see him exhausted and trailing them.
 

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