Permission to still like Dyche?

[st.domingo]

For the majority of that game that was the most I’ve enjoyed watching us play for a while. The last few minutes were unbelievably shocking. Dyche very rarely seems to make good substitutions, and that must be the worst ever. To blame the crowd in any way whatsoever is horrible on his part. That was clear stupidity on his part. I was content for him to stay this season, as I think he would keep us up. But his stubbornness and constant blaming of others has become too much now.

Yeah I was watching us cruising, trying to remember that last time that we looked that much like a comfortable home side.

Here in the flesh was the watching Everton win 2-0 that @chicoazul was pining for in his first preview of the season.

And then big Sean went and sabotaged it.

We can only speculate on the reasons why that might be. That as an ex-professional footballer and highly PL-experienced (as he keeps reminding us) manager, he's unable to see the blindingly obvious that 10s of 1000s of other much less qualified folks can, seems on the face of it to be among the less likely possibilities.

 

[twoblue]

I know that is another reason I don't want him here. Both cut from the same cloth.

Season played over 9 months yet playing catch up already 3 defeats 10 goals conceded. That is something that can be brushed aside with 'but we will be alright'

I agree that the three games should have garnered at least 3 or 4 points.

We're not a bad team, in that sense. We're just badly managed/coached. Have been for a number of years basically since Moyes left. Carlo was okay (with us but he had his faults) likewise with Silva. The rest I would package with Dyche as 'awful manager'.

we have below par players for premier league survival.
We are forced to have young, and Coleman well past their sell by dates.
We can’t afford the surgery that is needed to the squad. And Dyche is a life support machine until that time comes.

 

[Neiler]

Well I can't give you a step by step plan of how to do it because I am not a Premier League manager.
What I am is a fan that can see that what we are doing is not working therefore a change is warranted

Not reaching ambition is not failure. Deciding to have little ambition because it is easy to achieve is failure.
That is what we are under Dyche. That is what we are when we say he's working miracles for keeping the longest standing club in the Premier League in the Premier League
He has the easiest job in the world if we reward him lowering our standards to match his abilities
We've tolerated a gradual diminishing of our status to the point where a mediocre and dated manager is being praised for the bare minimum requirement of a top tier club. We can blame Kenwright's 'plucky little' nonsense, Moshiri's well meaning but inept ownership, Benitez and then Dyche talking us down but the truth is it is fans tolerating it is what has allowed it to happen. Dyche has learned we accept this relegation fodder narrative and that he is the only available hero, so he talks down about us and his players without taking responsibility

I agree with you about adversity, but adversity has levels too. Setting our targets low means the adversity we encounter isn't used to better effect. By your own analysis adversity is an inherent part of ambition.

'Thumping the chest and saying we should have ambition' is far less pointless than sitting in a corner and being told to accept a mediocre manager's reality, because that gives us what we have now

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, popped into the gym on the way home!

Just a disclaimer - in the sense whatever I write isn’t personally intended, but I’d like to to think we can have a frank conversation. Everyone’s a bit on edge and lashing at the moment, by style is to play the ball not the man!

I disagree with you on Dyche, but I don’t necessarily in ambition - when I hear ambition or standards trotted out by other fans on this forum, podcasts, media etc - there is nothing to back it up, no plan, risk assessment, quality assurance or cost analysis, no future proofing - ok we have a new manager - what resources can we give to succeed etc.

On ambition, we rarely show it as a fan base, it’s not just about results on the pitch - talking about standards then is glib and reactive - chest beating as I mention. I’ll give you an example, in the Branthwaite thread, I said what if we don’t sell him and keep him for another three of four years, I was rounded on being told we can’t do that, PSR, we need to ell to improve etc. I said the same thing about Richarlison, Lookman and Gordon and again got pelters, a lot of those are in the Dyche thread now talking about ambition and standards. Absolutely everyone on this forum, has accepted that Branthwaite will be sold next summer and he will be without a whimper from the fan base - where is the chest tumbling about ambition and standards there? It doesn’t exist, the majority are content being serfs to Villa, Newcastle and Spurs. Reversing that would be part of my plan.

Which takes me to my broader point. If this club handed Dyche, 100 mill every window he was here and he was brining home the current results, I’d be absolutlry in the band wagon. Thats not the case though, he’s been given considerable y less resources then his peers - never mind “ambition” of top 4 or 6. Any resources he has have to be diluted by selling his best players and diluting that to bring in numbers. Let’s look at some evidence - we earned the same amount of points as Brighton last season and they spent 200 mill on players this summer.

What tools have we given the manager to compete:

Year 1: A hopeless cause, a failed Jamuary transfer window, a hopeless cause of a team going down , with Demari Gray up front.

Result: PL safety = 100 mill euro.

Year 2: self generated transfer fund, followed by 8 point deduction.

Result: PL with time to spare, increased prize money, = 110 mill.


I mention all the above to illustrate, we have had and have a lot of problems at this club - the loss of ambition and standards in a collective failure of those that run the club and what tools it has and can give this or any manager. That’s not changed, everything else is a symptoms.

What we are is a club in a tight rope - we have some at the club trying to recover the club - that is incremental - Dyche is part of that recovery - but it’s a volatile situation, why people think adding additional instability is beyond me. I’ve not a doubt in the world he’s managing us to 10-12th this year. I saw him trying to transition the team on Saturday in the second half to something we haven’t been. Who do you think - brought some of these players in, Ndiyae & Tim - Dyche and Thelwell, they are trying to transition it.

In the context of the above I give short shrift, to those talking about sacking, standards, ambitition - it’s horse manure - the club is in a systemic crisis, changing manager is moving deck chairs around the titanic, a new one doesn’t get any more tools or a more situation - so people aren’t getting one of a high standard.

Which brung me back to the plan as I say everyone’s great at saying where they want to go - but most haven’t a clue of how, when, what will we need and what do we have to get there. As far as I can see people solution is Graham Potter or saying it’s a big world out so get get someone from the Belgian second division or I’m not paid to make that decision. Doesn’t fill you with confidence does - particularly as they will be handed the same manure show, limits and lack of tops as this manager.

The manager is far from the problem at this club and those who think he is are frankly fooling themselves if they don’t see the crisis at the club we’ve all been and continue to live through.

Talking about, ambition and standards is rubbish unless you have a plan and the resources to make it happen at 5e very least - don’t be a wet while for Villa, Spurs and Newcastle, maybe we keep Branthwaite …..what!

 

[matty1878]

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, popped into the gym on the way home!

Just a disclaimer - in the sense whatever I write isn’t personally intended, but I’d like to to think we can have a frank conversation. Everyone’s a bit on edge and lashing at the moment, by style is to play the ball not the man!

I disagree with you on Dyche, but I don’t necessarily in ambition - when I hear ambition or standards trotted out by other fans on this forum, podcasts, media etc - there is nothing to back it up, no plan, risk assessment, quality assurance or cost analysis, no future proofing - ok we have a new manager - what resources can we give to succeed etc.

On ambition, we rarely show it as a fan base, it’s not just about results on the pitch - talking about standards then is glib and reactive - chest beating as I mention. I’ll give you an example, in the Branthwaite thread, I said what if we don’t sell him and keep him for another three of four years, I was rounded on being told we can’t do that, PSR, we need to ell to improve etc. I said the same thing about Richarlison, Lookman and Gordon and again got pelters, a lot of those are in the Dyche thread now talking about ambition and standards. Absolutely everyone on this forum, has accepted that Branthwaite will be sold next summer and he will be without a whimper from the fan base - where is the chest tumbling about ambition and standards there? It doesn’t exist, the majority are content being serfs to Villa, Newcastle and Spurs. Reversing that would be part of my plan.

Which takes me to my broader point. If this club handed Dyche, 100 mill every window he was here and he was brining home the current results, I’d be absolutlry in the band wagon. Thats not the case though, he’s been given considerable y less resources then his peers - never mind “ambition” of top 4 or 6. Any resources he has have to be diluted by selling his best players and diluting that to bring in numbers. Let’s look at some evidence - we earned the same amount of points as Brighton last season and they spent 200 mill on players this summer.

What tools have we given the manager to compete:

Year 1: A hopeless cause, a failed Jamuary transfer window, a hopeless cause of a team going down , with Demari Gray up front.

Result: PL safety = 100 mill euro.

Year 2: self generated transfer fund, followed by 8 point deduction.

Result: PL with time to spare, increased prize money, = 110 mill.


I mention all the above to illustrate, we have had and have a lot of problems at this club - the loss of ambition and standards in a collective failure of those that run the club and what tools it has and can give this or any manager. That’s not changed, everything else is a symptoms.

What we are is a club in a tight rope - we have some at the club trying to recover the club - that is incremental - Dyche is part of that recovery - but it’s a volatile situation, why people think adding additional instability is beyond me. I’ve not a doubt in the world he’s managing us to 10-12th this year. I saw him trying to transition the team on Saturday in the second half to something we haven’t been. Who do you think - brought some of these players in, Ndiyae & Tim - Dyche and Thelwell, they are trying to transition it.

In the context of the above I give short shrift, to those talking about sacking, standards, ambitition - it’s horse manure - the club is in a systemic crisis, changing manager is moving deck chairs around the titanic, a new one doesn’t get any more tools or a more situation - so people aren’t getting one of a high standard.

Which brung me back to the plan as I say everyone’s great at saying where they want to go - but most haven’t a clue of how, when, what will we need and what do we have to get there. As far as I can see people solution is Graham Potter or saying it’s a big world out so get get someone from the Belgian second division or I’m not paid to make that decision. Doesn’t fill you with confidence does - particularly as they will be handed the same manure show, limits and lack of tops as this manager.

The manager is far from the problem at this club and those who think he is are frankly fooling themselves if they don’t see the crisis at the club we’ve all been and continue to live through.

Talking about, ambition and standards is rubbish unless you have a plan and the resources to make it happen at 5e very least - don’t be a wet while for Villa, Spurs and Newcastle, maybe we keep Branthwaite …..what!

good post. you not worked hard then in the gym?

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

You don't need permission to have your opinion.

And I dont need permission to disagree with you opinion

I dont think we will be fine with Dyche. Quite the opposite in fact.

We will stay up and then he is out of contract - winning

 

[Neiler]

good post. you not worked hard then in the gym?

Not as hard as that post!

 

[matty1878]

Not as hard as that post!

i can tell

 

[Toffeepot]

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, popped into the gym on the way home!

Just a disclaimer - in the sense whatever I write isn’t personally intended, but I’d like to to think we can have a frank conversation. Everyone’s a bit on edge and lashing at the moment, by style is to play the ball not the man!

I disagree with you on Dyche, but I don’t necessarily in ambition - when I hear ambition or standards trotted out by other fans on this forum, podcasts, media etc - there is nothing to back it up, no plan, risk assessment, quality assurance or cost analysis, no future proofing - ok we have a new manager - what resources can we give to succeed etc.

On ambition, we rarely show it as a fan base, it’s not just about results on the pitch - talking about standards then is glib and reactive - chest beating as I mention. I’ll give you an example, in the Branthwaite thread, I said what if we don’t sell him and keep him for another three of four years, I was rounded on being told we can’t do that, PSR, we need to ell to improve etc. I said the same thing about Richarlison, Lookman and Gordon and again got pelters, a lot of those are in the Dyche thread now talking about ambition and standards. Absolutely everyone on this forum, has accepted that Branthwaite will be sold next summer and he will be without a whimper from the fan base - where is the chest tumbling about ambition and standards there? It doesn’t exist, the majority are content being serfs to Villa, Newcastle and Spurs. Reversing that would be part of my plan.

Which takes me to my broader point. If this club handed Dyche, 100 mill every window he was here and he was brining home the current results, I’d be absolutlry in the band wagon. Thats not the case though, he’s been given considerable y less resources then his peers - never mind “ambition” of top 4 or 6. Any resources he has have to be diluted by selling his best players and diluting that to bring in numbers. Let’s look at some evidence - we earned the same amount of points as Brighton last season and they spent 200 mill on players this summer.

What tools have we given the manager to compete:

Year 1: A hopeless cause, a failed Jamuary transfer window, a hopeless cause of a team going down , with Demari Gray up front.

Result: PL safety = 100 mill euro.

Year 2: self generated transfer fund, followed by 8 point deduction.

Result: PL with time to spare, increased prize money, = 110 mill.


I mention all the above to illustrate, we have had and have a lot of problems at this club - the loss of ambition and standards in a collective failure of those that run the club and what tools it has and can give this or any manager. That’s not changed, everything else is a symptoms.

What we are is a club in a tight rope - we have some at the club trying to recover the club - that is incremental - Dyche is part of that recovery - but it’s a volatile situation, why people think adding additional instability is beyond me. I’ve not a doubt in the world he’s managing us to 10-12th this year. I saw him trying to transition the team on Saturday in the second half to something we haven’t been. Who do you think - brought some of these players in, Ndiyae & Tim - Dyche and Thelwell, they are trying to transition it.

In the context of the above I give short shrift, to those talking about sacking, standards, ambitition - it’s horse manure - the club is in a systemic crisis, changing manager is moving deck chairs around the titanic, a new one doesn’t get any more tools or a more situation - so people aren’t getting one of a high standard.

Which brung me back to the plan as I say everyone’s great at saying where they want to go - but most haven’t a clue of how, when, what will we need and what do we have to get there. As far as I can see people solution is Graham Potter or saying it’s a big world out so get get someone from the Belgian second division or I’m not paid to make that decision. Doesn’t fill you with confidence does - particularly as they will be handed the same manure show, limits and lack of tops as this manager.

The manager is far from the problem at this club and those who think he is are frankly fooling themselves if they don’t see the crisis at the club we’ve all been and continue to live through.

Talking about, ambition and standards is rubbish unless you have a plan and the resources to make it happen at 5e very least - don’t be a wet while for Villa, Spurs and Newcastle, maybe we keep Branthwaite …..what!

Absolutely man, a frank discussion! I didn't take anything you said as personal and I hope I didn't give that impression

Granted, tools are limited, and the problems associated with that can show up sometimes, but Saturday's match proves that the tools are there to win games we should win. As the saying goes 'a poor gardener blames his tools' which Dyche did in his presser. I do not think he was transitioning us to anything new based on that performance because I think that performance happened in spite of him. Ndiaye lifted everyone and gave us an attacking impetus that we simply don't show ordinarily. Ex-players often say a new signing can lift those around them and that is what I saw. He lifted the crowd too. Everything was working perfectly and Bournemouth were in their own half for the most part where they are least comfortable.

That being said, let's say Dyche was responsible for the change in approach and it was all clicking. He then sabotaged it himself by taking off the most effective players on the pitch but left a few lagging legs out there. So let's again give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was a freak occurrence and the mistake didn't deserve to be punished the way it was. It's hard for even the best managers in the world to imagine an implosion like that happening from those subs. He didn't even speculate that those subs may have changed the game negatively, not publicly anyway. What he did instead was throw the players, the club itself and fans under the bus by putting everyone down. This on the back of recent comments about 'reality' that fans need to accept, and notions of 'Europe' are unrealistic(still haven't heard one fan suggest that btw). This kind of rhetoric isn't just unambitious, it's anti-ambition, and I can't see how that is beneficial to anyone other than Dyche himself. Players must feel rubbish, fans misunderstood and the club paying a top 6 wage to a manager that wants everyone to know that survival is success.

You seem convinced that Dyche will get us 10th to 12th this season. That would be acceptable to me given the tools you mentioned and the squad we have but why does Dyche not believe we are that level? Without the points deduction last season we would've been 12th so why doesn't he talk about us improving or equaling that? This season it's back to survival mode and we should be happy with it apparently
His rhetoric annoys me the most, and many repeat it. It's not just standards or ambition which as you've rightly pointed out have been dropping for a while now, but the lowering of expectations. Why? Why the excuse of selling Onana when he wasn't even starting in our best run? Again the lowering of expectations helps nobody except Dyche.
It is understandable that he resorts to what he knows when under pressure, we all do. Maybe this is why he talks about having a team that are relegation fodder. The same team for the most part that he called good players when he arrived, which likely gave them a lift. All he knows prior to us is 'I got praise for the job I did with a limited Burnley squad, and survival with Everton during a difficult season' so that's the rhetoric we get. It is more about his level than Everton's.
Did he get handed a tough task? yes. Did he succeed then? yes. Is he a hero? no. 18months into the job where he has frequently taken credit for 'changing the narrative' he can't claim 'the narrative' is a problem from years ago. Why do relatively well and still keep expectations low? When he talks about the negatives he distances himself, positives, he puts himself front and centre. It's grating.

As regards Branthwaite, I couldn't agree more. That was a statement of ambition from the club, or at least of not being bullied. Outside of the weak FB positions I think Thelwel has done a great job this summer. I would love us to try to keep these players like him and the ones you mentioned and not be a feeder club for others, but Villa for example have made themselves more attractive by qualifying for CL under a top manager with a record of success. We sell a story of survival being success because it suits the manager to do so.
I'm one of those that think the club should be able to scout a better manager because they spend their days tapped into world football. It's reasonable to assume they have a better idea of availability too. With the wage Dyche is on we could easily attract someone less comfortable with losing matches and less inclined to pass the blame. He's either on the same side as us or he's not. I honestly think most managers would apologise to the fans after that on Saturday, but that would mean admitting some level of culpability and he just can't or won't do that.

Are we resigned to selling Branthwaite? If the manager doesn't instill any potential for improvement or show ambition higher than survival then the lad would probably be wise to leave, and Villa, Newcastle, Spurs etc would be wise to keep offering them a more positive 'narrative'.

 

[everton1953]

No, unless you insist on liking him. I want him gone but don't know when is the right time.

 

[Neiler]

Absolutely man, a frank discussion! I didn't take anything you said as personal and I hope I didn't give that impression

Granted, tools are limited, and the problems associated with that can show up sometimes, but Saturday's match proves that the tools are there to win games we should win. As the saying goes 'a poor gardener blames his tools' which Dyche did in his presser. I do not think he was transitioning us to anything new based on that performance because I think that performance happened in spite of him. Ndiaye lifted everyone and gave us an attacking impetus that we simply don't show ordinarily. Ex-players often say a new signing can lift those around them and that is what I saw. He lifted the crowd too. Everything was working perfectly and Bournemouth were in their own half for the most part where they are least comfortable.

That being said, let's say Dyche was responsible for the change in approach and it was all clicking. He then sabotaged it himself by taking off the most effective players on the pitch but left a few lagging legs out there. So let's again give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was a freak occurrence and the mistake didn't deserve to be punished the way it was. It's hard for even the best managers in the world to imagine an implosion like that happening from those subs. He didn't even speculate that those subs may have changed the game negatively, not publicly anyway. What he did instead was throw the players, the club itself and fans under the bus by putting everyone down. This on the back of recent comments about 'reality' that fans need to accept, and notions of 'Europe' are unrealistic(still haven't heard one fan suggest that btw). This kind of rhetoric isn't just unambitious, it's anti-ambition, and I can't see how that is beneficial to anyone other than Dyche himself. Players must feel rubbish, fans misunderstood and the club paying a top 6 wage to a manager that wants everyone to know that survival is success.

You seem convinced that Dyche will get us 10th to 12th this season. That would be acceptable to me given the tools you mentioned and the squad we have but why does Dyche not believe we are that level? Without the points deduction last season we would've been 12th so why doesn't he talk about us improving or equaling that? This season it's back to survival mode and we should be happy with it apparently
His rhetoric annoys me the most, and many repeat it. It's not just standards or ambition which as you've rightly pointed out have been dropping for a while now, but the lowering of expectations. Why? Why the excuse of selling Onana when he wasn't even starting in our best run? Again the lowering of expectations helps nobody except Dyche.
It is understandable that he resorts to what he knows when under pressure, we all do. Maybe this is why he talks about having a team that are relegation fodder. The same team for the most part that he called good players when he arrived, which likely gave them a lift. All he knows prior to us is 'I got praise for the job I did with a limited Burnley squad, and survival with Everton during a difficult season' so that's the rhetoric we get. It is more about his level than Everton's.
Did he get handed a tough task? yes. Did he succeed then? yes. Is he a hero? no. 18months into the job where he has frequently taken credit for 'changing the narrative' he can't claim 'the narrative' is a problem from years ago. Why do relatively well and still keep expectations low? When he talks about the negatives he distances himself, positives, he puts himself front and centre. It's grating.

As regards Branthwaite, I couldn't agree more. That was a statement of ambition from the club, or at least of not being bullied. Outside of the weak FB positions I think Thelwel has done a great job this summer. I would love us to try to keep these players like him and the ones you mentioned and not be a feeder club for others, but Villa for example have made themselves more attractive by qualifying for CL under a top manager with a record of success. We sell a story of survival being success because it suits the manager to do so.
I'm one of those that think the club should be able to scout a better manager because they spend their days tapped into world football. It's reasonable to assume they have a better idea of availability too. With the wage Dyche is on we could easily attract someone less comfortable with losing matches and less inclined to pass the blame. He's either on the same side as us or he's not. I honestly think most managers would apologise to the fans after that on Saturday, but that would mean admitting some level of culpability and he just can't or won't do that.

Are we resigned to selling Branthwaite? If the manager doesn't instill any potential for improvement or show ambition higher than survival then the lad would probably be wise to leave, and Villa, Newcastle, Spurs etc would be wise to keep offering them a more positive 'narrative'.

Thanks mate!

The problem with the Dyche debate and we are all a bit guilty of this is a preconception and what ever happens good or bad our bias is confirmed and we run with that. I find your first two paragraphs as evidance of that. Saturdays performance is binary its both good and bad. The bad is on Dyche, but the good is despite of him - that's just not accurate and evidential of what i said preceding about bias.

Allow me to reframe perhaps the players posting a good performance despite Dyche, is Dyche actually targeting and working with the DOF to build a side - maybe he picked Tim maybe he picked Ndaiye and all the other new signings to take the side forward and transition from the one dimensional squad of players he inherited and build to compliment and bring the best out of other players - that was on show on Saturday. The result was for the first time in years Everton had another good football playing team pinned back in their own half for 98% of a game - i cant remember the last time we had the ability of players to do that. We moved on from one dimension - get crosses in the box and had threat coming from left, right and centrally - with great penetration through the central channel. Did everyone wake up in the morning and decide for that to happen - no its building and planning like i said. There are green shoots there is you care to see them, they were there on Sat, they will continue to grow and we have other new signings and players returning from injury to compliment the taster we got. People are choosing not so see or ackonwelgde all of that - there is a building process going on and that is boom and bust and a process. Do you get a kick in the gut manageing change - always.

I think Dyche is right to lay some of the blame on the players - the whole group takes collective responsibility including him and he will reflect on what happened. For me its a mentality breakdown and id rocket all of our players on the back of it - he made the point before the game that this group have climbed the mountain of attitude and mentality and then retunred to the bottom of it since the season started - if im critiuqing him i think that has disarmed him and surprised him and he needs to get on top of it - he will - why? Because hes taken some of these surrender monkeys and made them a tough team hard to beat before - when they were wet wipes under previous two managers. He takes some of the blame of course - hes currently the front for the club, he's rolled out in front of media - for everything - so he takes the heat. But hes right id go through a team of U12 on the basics of the game - if they did what happened on Saturday - its park football stuff - so you expect a group of professional footballers to manage a game form the point we were at. We can talk about Subs all you like and hindsight is great, if we made 5 and lost people would be berating him now saying he should have left it - everyone is wiser after. Besides if nothing else this team has proved under him that it can be disciplined and manage a game to get a result and get an outcome - Saturday was a 1 in million fluke prob never to be repeated. Part of management is trusting those you have charged to do a job, if i fail to do that job thats on me - a manager takes some of that heat - but if i haven't performed competently to achieve an outcome - then the manager rightly eat me - that true in all walks of life.

Im not going to lie my sights have been raised, weirdly even more so after Saturday, i spent all year last year - saying we have really poor players and a threadbare squad, i think we have improved that - so if our previous squad can post a points total for 12th i see no reason why we cant par that or better it - my expectations have actually been raised. Realistically though I think that will be incremental progress while transitioning the style of play and managing that change. In terms of expectations and him playing them down - every thing i said in my previous post is true - we aren't a well run - stable club - we have severe limits and competing with the Spurs and Brighton's who are spending many multiples of what we can, even our rivals for 10/12th.

What we are trying to do is recover the footballing side of that and counter the advantages others have by pushing the glass boundary of limits. That is a process of change - we made incredible progress last year from the one before to get a points total for 12th and it needs to take an incremental step again. But its important to acknowledge that the club is still in crisis and the severe limits we are working through - its a really tough job systemically, so expectations need to be realistic. The systemic piece and instability around the club isn't acknowledged enough. I dont think its mentioned once in the Dyche thread - prob bar from me.

If im being very honest, i dont think many people are annoyed with Dyche, they are annoyed with Everton - hes just the figure head now and the lightening rod, there is no Kenwright, no board, no visible owner to vent at - the only one who has fronted for a year and half is Dyche and now hes the conduit - wrongly in my opinion. People aren’t really fed up with Dyche they are fed up with malaise of the club, he’s fronted that with others who deserve more blame hiding behind him and fans are just exercising agency in something they feel the can influence - they are fed up with the lot at Everton.

When people talk of ambition - as i say they talk of the end point - why do we deserve - to be in the top 6, or avoid relegation or not have to earn our place in this league - we absolutely deserve to be in the position we are in - we absolutely messed up the club and we dont deserve anymore. There is nothing in deciding to be ambitious, or in ripping up stability again that going to turn the after burners on and get us right up the table tomorrow - its turning around an oil tanker and a mutli year project, sacking the captain every six weeks just makes the ships journey longer and steers it to rocky waters.

As i evidance above - most cant see the plan and are hazed by three results - let me be illustrative - we have turned over almost all the high earning wasteful players at the club, we have brought in 8 players to transition the play, make the squad deeper, give us variance and give us tools to attack and dominate a game - we saw that on Saturday - change always brings risk and we saw that with the system failure on Saturday, in hindsight could the team and manager have done better - definitely - but that is also an opportunity to process and for reflection reflection and growth. Saturday was the first time for years we brought a good footballing side to Goodision and pinned them back and dominated the game, the first time we have seen flair and threat in years and there was air of change in the air up until the crash.

We need to build on the above, refine make it stronger and better - we know these players can see games out and get results we know he can build resilience - we are seeing a transition now to making us more dangerous - that needs nurturing not ripping up - the last thing this club needs is more instability and the beginning of another - new project.

Again i will say this, ambition is fine everyone has a vision, its a common every day occurrence - very few know what steps, work and risk are involved in selling it and achieving it - i see it in what we are trying to do.

As for expectations and ambition - you get what you deserve, we dont deserve to be anymore then what we are at the moment and i dont know why people think we should - that's not, not having ambition or standard - its realistic appraisal that the performance holistically at the club has been so bad for so long and continues to be- we are actually very lucky to be in the league at all. Acknowledging that isn't not having ambition its an acknowledgement of the ground zero we need to build on to raise standards and show ambition - as i say in my illustration above - we have a plan and we saw it for much of Saturday and you know what - there is more to come, with lads coming back and more players to be integrated. All thats required in patience and as always in football fandom that in short supply.

 

[peterw]

I totally disagree, that was one of the 6/7 easiest games of our season, we got played off the park by Brighton and spurs, if they’re expected loses, as some seem to think, then losing to Bournemouth is alarming, irrelevant how we played, we lost. Going of the last 19 months, this type if performance was a one off in style and creating chances, this doesn’t happen often. So it’s a bit of a wait and see what the next 2/3 games hold.

Leicester away and palace at home again falls into the games we should be getting wins from. He’s massively under pressure now, going into the next 4 games, before the next international break

The only thing I'd add is that Bournemouth are no mugs and finished midtable last season. If you thought that would be an easy game then you're setting yourself up for a fall in most games. You too are a midtable team currently and for most of the game you outplayed a direct rival.

Its a new season and things never click immediately and whilst you may feel alarmed at the drop off in the last 20 mins or so, it does happen, That you played a rival off the park for 87 mins shows that things are moving in the right direction. Obviously you and Dyche have history of enmity (I'm guessing here) so he has very little credit in the bank for fans to fall back on and I get the outpouring of ire towards him in that regard. As you say he's massively under pressure but let's say you beat Villa and lose the next two, is that better than drawing all 3?

 

[blueboy72]

The only thing I'd add is that Bournemouth are no mugs and finished midtable last season. If you thought that would be an easy game then you're setting yourself up for a fall in most games. You too are a midtable team currently and for most of the game you outplayed a direct rival.

Its a new season and things never click immediately and whilst you may feel alarmed at the drop off in the last 20 mins or so, it does happen, That you played a rival off the park for 87 mins shows that things are moving in the right direction. Obviously you and Dyche have history of enmity (I'm guessing here) so he has very little credit in the bank for fans to fall back on and I get the outpouring of ire towards him in that regard. As you say he's massively under pressure but let's say you beat Villa and lose the next two, is that better than drawing all 3?

I don’t like him full stop and didn’t wnat him as our manager, because he’s not good enough for Everton imo, you’re obviously happy with him and the football and 5 wins in 25. He’s a arrogant man, it’s always someone else’s fault, he stil thinks he’s managing Burnley. And Bournemouth aren’t a great team and have lost their main goal scorer. We should be beating them and that’s Dyche’s best team performance in 19 months and we still lost.

And you talk about things not clicking immediately, well the fist game he picked 10 players who’ve been here since he arrived, Brighton had 3/4 new signings playing and wiped the floor with us. As did spurs.

He hasn’t won a game in August for about 6 yrs, why is that? It’s just madness and will catch up with you eventually like it did with Burnley. You’re obviously are a fan and think, like dyche 17tg would be ok this season. We don’t get at least 4 points from
the next 4 then he should be sacked, Thelwell should be looking and talking to alternatives now.

 

[peterw]

Kane barely scored a goal in August and people were picking that up as a stick to beat him with, until he did and then they stopped. Nothing is won or lost in August so there other considerations such as context.

The point about things clicking is that players are not at their fittest nor do the teams patterns necessarily 'click' straight away. for 87 minuted they appeared to be clicking very nicely against bournemouth but for the nerves setting in once they got their first. That happens. Comparing teams is neither here nor there really although the point of new players coming in is taken, but with that in mind if Dyche was sacked tomorrow would you be happy to see Brighton's manager appointed?

Its easy to talk about perspective and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory does feels calamitous, but a win at Villa Park, or even a point, or maybe even a very good showing should show that things are moving in the right direction. Is changing yet another manager simply because many (not saying this is you) have simply never warmed to Dyche necessarily going to change much?

 

[njligernj]

On ambition, we rarely show it as a fan base, it’s not just about results on the pitch - talking about standards then is glib and reactive - chest beating as I mention. I’ll give you an example, in the Branthwaite thread, I said what if we don’t sell him and keep him for another three of four years, I was rounded on being told we can’t do that, PSR, we need to ell to improve etc. I said the same thing about Richarlison, Lookman and Gordon and again got pelters, a lot of those are in the Dyche thread now talking about ambition and standards. Absolutely everyone on this forum, has accepted that Branthwaite will be sold next summer and he will be without a whimper from the fan base - where is the chest tumbling about ambition and standards there? It doesn’t exist, the majority are content being serfs to Villa, Newcastle and Spurs. Reversing that would be part of my plan.

I agree. There are people on this forum who have, for over a decade, repeatedly tried to remind people that we (nor any club ever) gets better by selling their best players.

 

[Davideeyore]

This still here?