2021/22 Rafael Benitez

[Armaghtoffee]

Silva 18th when fired
Koeman 18th when fired.

Until we're in the bottom 3, Rafael won't be going anywhere.

Even you see the inevitable ending.

 

[Martin Alvito]

He has been here now for several months and who can say what exactly is our style of play??? Because to me we don't have one it's just try to nick one and hang on

That is a style of play. It is called negative football. Football, like chess, is a positional game where one side is advantaged by setting up to attack and the other is advantaged by setting up to defend. As the quality of the sides approaches parity, shifts in this dynamic as the game ebbs and flows are likely. Correctly identifying which is which, and when, is a major key to success.

Many fans don't like it when the manager effectively concedes that the opposition is playing the white pieces today. This tends to become a sharper criticism when the fanbase has had the better of the talent in the past. You're not likely to hear anyone complain about Diego Simeone building his side to defend first against the financial might of Real and Barca. Setting up to defend against, say, Palace is a humbling admission.

 

[kenada_blue]

That is a style of play. It is called negative football. Football, like chess, is a positional game where one side is advantaged by setting up to attack and the other is advantaged by setting up to defend. As the quality of the sides approaches parity, shifts in this dynamic as the game ebbs and flows are likely. Correctly identifying which is which, and when, is a major key to success.

Many fans don't like it when the manager effectively concedes that the opposition is playing the white pieces today. This tends to become a sharper criticism when the fanbase has had the better of the talent in the past. You're not likely to hear anyone complain about Diego Simeone building his side to defend first against the financial might of Real and Barca. Setting up to defend against, say, Palace is a humbling admission.

Personally, we're not playing negative football. He's trying to be clever because the system fluctuates from 442 to 4231 in and out of possession. That's not negative, that's trying to out-smart the opponent. However he's doing is horrendously.

Simeone for example has a hard working, compact, side with quality in the right areas who if you get suckered in...will kill you. The majority of their games are decided by 1 goal.

Take Ancelotti last season. He fluctuated from 451 to 433 constantly but didn't have the pace up top to kill teams. However we did have James, Richy, Dom and attacking fullbacks. We conceded possession because we're not a team who can keep it. What he did find is that as a team we couldn't be both a front foot and a defensive side in a game...it had to be one or the other. If we attacked, we'd struggle. If we defended we'd stay in a game longer.

Back to Benitez. He won't adapt and change even if there's injuries. He'll keep doing it until he gets his way. Martinez did it, Silva did it. Both got sacked eventually.

 

[JLW]

Just one more game of togger to endure then the fat meff will be toast.

Im convinced Friday afternoon he will be gone

 

[Martin Alvito]

Personally, we're not playing negative football. He's trying to be clever because the system fluctuates from 442 to 4231 in and out of possession. That's not negative, that's trying to out-smart the opponent. However he's doing is horrendously.

Simeone for example has a hard working, compact, side with quality in the right areas who if you get suckered in...will kill you. The majority of their games are decided by 1 goal.

Take Ancelotti last season. He fluctuated from 451 to 433 constantly but didn't have the pace up top to kill teams. However we did have James, Richy, Dom and attacking fullbacks. We conceded possession because we're not a team who can keep it. What he did find is that as a team we couldn't be both a front foot and a defensive side in a game...it had to be one or the other. If we attacked, we'd struggle. If we defended we'd stay in a game longer.

Back to Benitez. He won't adapt and change even if there's injuries. He'll keep doing it until he gets his way. Martinez did it, Silva did it. Both got sacked eventually.

We're conceding possession, defending space and trying to score on the counter. When Mourinho does that, it's called parking the bus.

Simeone mastered the dark arts as a player and then turned around and became a master sensei. He knows what he needs each season, goes out, finds it and develops it. Having built a mousetrap like that, it's easier to sustain it. Being in La Liga also helps, as the challenges from below are a lot less credible.

Ancelotti started us out hyper-aggressive and learned that, with injuries, that wasn't an option. What was interesting was that the defensive setup he settled on did fairly well when the opponent wanted the ball, but struggled to avoid mistakes when the opponent wasn't as aggressive. Once we got pried out of our shell chasing an equalizer, we were in trouble and generally conceded again.

With respect to Benitez, he's finding some of the same things with respect to the players but has been slower to learn, without a doubt. Ancelotti went through a similar doldrums spell after a torrid opening, but turned the battleship on matchday 12. He didn't have to contend with losing a top 10 scorer or a gutted central defense (yet), but lost more in midfield. He extracted far more from Davies and Holgate, to his credit.

It's not clear to me whether to attribute the clown car defending to the tactics or the ever-rotating cast of characters at the back. The set piece issue rearing its ugly head again after Ancelotti largely settled it probably belongs to Benitez. I'm not sure that there was a lot he could have done about the first concession on Sunday. Players flat out not executing basic stuff is hard to pin on the manager.

 

[gazzaa2]

Benitez isn’t as good as Ancelotti. Hardly anyone is. This is still what people don’t understand. We had one of the best managers of all time at the club, one of the best in football history, a manager who is now sauntering to another league title and will be the only manager to win a title in the five top leagues, the only manager in the modern era to win 3 CLs with different clubs, the only other man being his direct student.

But even he, even Carlo Ancelotti could get barely anything more than bang average sit deep and get one on the break out of this group of utter balloons. No wonder he ran off as quickly as possible. Anyone watching the Spurs home game as a manager would probably have resigned after seeing those clowns Keane and Holgate throw away a win that was down to your tactics.

Benitez isn’t in Ancelotti’s class, and Lo and behold he’s getting even less out of these league one chumps. What’s laughable though is that most of this forum thinks a complete unknown ‘progressive’ manager is going to come in and suddenly have them performing. Michael Keane can barely kick a ball without giving a goal away, Coleman can’t even trap a football, Holgate doesn’t know what way we’re shooting most of the time.

The squad is an abomination. It has been since Koeman gutted it. The manager is completely irrelevant. These players have to leave.

Carlo is a top manager but he's always done well with top players. He wasn't a good fit.

59 points was a good effort but had he not lost interest/fell away last 6 games we'd have made Europe.

 

[Legend78]

Some of our fans have really taken all the silly sound bites to heart haven't they? Sacking managers is now the worst thing in the world to them because we've apparently done it so often in recent years (a whopping three times in nine years since Moyes left!). It obviously hasn't dawned on them that all our sackings, yes, again all three of them (because part time managers don't count for anyone looking to debate this) where completely justified. Seriously people, tell me with your hand on your heart if you honestly believe that Martinez or Koeman or Silva deserved more time. Because if you do then you deserve Benitez and the dumpster fire that is EFC in 2021. Ffs, our problem has never been about who we sacked. Its always been about terrible, horrendous recruitment. On every level the recruitment at our club has been an unmitigated disaster. And its been this way for years. Literally years. Our scouts are terrible. Our players are terrible. And our managers have been the worst of the bunch. Ffs just stop living in dream world and pretending that just blindly sticking to the latest trainwreck manager will fix anything because it demonstrably won't.

Well going on what you have said the time to judge Benitez is when he has finished his recruitment and has his own players in.. surely
Are you saying he should be judged after just one transfer window and 1.5m spent... the man deserves the same chance as Martinez.. Silva and Koeman etc in time and money before any trigger is pulled surely..

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

Has he gone yet?

 

[kenada_blue]

We're conceding possession, defending space and trying to score on the counter. When Mourinho does that, it's called parking the bus.

Simeone mastered the dark arts as a player and then turned around and became a master sensei. He knows what he needs each season, goes out, finds it and develops it. Having built a mousetrap like that, it's easier to sustain it. Being in La Liga also helps, as the challenges from below are a lot less credible.

Ancelotti started us out hyper-aggressive and learned that, with injuries, that wasn't an option. What was interesting was that the defensive setup he settled on did fairly well when the opponent wanted the ball, but struggled to avoid mistakes when the opponent wasn't as aggressive. Once we got pried out of our shell chasing an equalizer, we were in trouble and generally conceded again.

With respect to Benitez, he's finding some of the same things with respect to the players but has been slower to learn, without a doubt. Ancelotti went through a similar doldrums spell after a torrid opening, but turned the battleship on matchday 12. He didn't have to contend with losing a top 10 scorer or a gutted central defense (yet), but lost more in midfield. He extracted far more from Davies and Holgate, to his credit.

It's not clear to me whether to attribute the clown car defending to the tactics or the ever-rotating cast of characters at the back. The set piece issue rearing its ugly head again after Ancelotti largely settled it probably belongs to Benitez. I'm not sure that there was a lot he could have done about the first concession on Sunday. Players flat out not executing basic stuff is hard to pin on the manager.

There's a difference between doing it right. Jose went right, chokes the life's out of games. They're not passive in defending. They're set up and ready to absorb with players willing to do it. You can't stay passive doing it

We're not doing it right to a point that I honestly believe he firmly got one foot in one style and one in the other...hence the disorganisation, lack of unity, and allowing teams the ball without any togetherness and aggression. He's got pressing from the front...then hardly any defensively. It's an odd mix.

Carlo sorted that out probably 5 games after the derby. Yes hiccups and set backs but with the squad we have, it will happen. We didn't press from the front, why would we when we were set up with two banks of 4 and 5 allowing the teams to us?

As for the set pieces. It's all Benitez and his zonal marking which he got hammered for a lot in his career. Zonal works with aggressive players in the air, attacking space. Mina is the only player that goes that. He's not there. Keane is a mouse and Godfrey can't head a ball. Carlo knew that so sat very deep and compact to then offer a chance to win the ball in congestion.

For a team that's not allowing freedom for their fullbacks, we're still a push over at the back. He's also never tried a genuine 3 midfield with 2 sitters as we don't have the players for a 2.

Look at West Ham with 2 in the middle of Rice and Soucek - works perfectly. Two big athletic players, ball winners but also get up and down. That doesn't work with Allan and Doucoure. Especially if we're going to absorb pressure.

 

[kenada_blue]

Carlo is a top manager but he's always done well with top players. He wasn't a good fit.

59 points was a good effort but had he not lost interest/fell away last 6 games we'd have made Europe.

Players that. Not him. He was speechless in interviews afterwards in most of those games.

It's when he and we all knew how spineless this squad it. Buckle under pressure.

And 59 points with this squad, to stay within Europe/top 6 by April, was a miracle

 

[gazzaa2]

Players that. Not him. He was speechless in interviews afterwards in most of those games.

It's when he and we all knew how spineless this squad it. Buckle under pressure.

And 59 points with this squad, to stay within Europe/top 6 by April, was a miracle

But we were spoilt with Carlo and the next man would always struggle in comparison.

 

[gazzaa2]

I think this is what's going to happen as well.

They won't be arsed with the Chelsea game, probably be made up with a small lose.

But when we lose against Leicester I think that'll be the day he's finally gone

We'll beat Leicester. The players will turn up again like Arsenal.

 

[Zatara]

Fair play to the attention seekers in here.

They really kept this up until (almost) Xmas.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

Good morning. Another day and that kopite scumbag is still here.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

Well going on what you have said the time to judge Benitez is when he has finished his recruitment and has his own players in.. surely
Are you saying he should be judged after just one transfer window and 1.5m spent... the man deserves the same chance as Martinez.. Silva and Koeman etc in time and money before any trigger is pulled surely..

Yeah let's let him loose when we finally have some money to spend, to bring some more of his geordie cast offs in. One win in two months, and him driving out and alienating all our best players. But yeah let's give him a chance. There's one key fatal flaw in your argument. Martinez Silva and Koeman weren't kopite scumbags. So normal rules don't apply here.