Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[DualityNSNO]

Yes you're right that's why a draw against norwich isn't seen as a good one

Or Bournemouth etc etc etc

 

[bluewally]

The same should be remembered during the game, big players miss chances, big players cock up in defence, goalies play great or muck up. That's sport for you.

Of course , I think it's much more influential in a penalty shootout though

 

[ilikecheese]

Yes you're right that's why a draw against norwich isn't seen as a good one

We won that match though.

 

[bluewally]

We won that match though.

I think we're back where we started

 

[DualityNSNO]

We won that match though.

How did we win a draw? I mean the cup one, yeah, but again we turn to the league, and the score is 1:1... And that was a week or something after the cup game?

Won it through lottery, then couldn't win it in the league. If there was no shootout rule, it's a draw, so we relied on luck to get through the cup game.

 

[ilikecheese]

I think we're back where we started

Yeah...it's kind of the nature of this thread really. The Out crowd struggle to give the manager any credit...even when we win.

And my statement about only caring about results and not caring how we got them, is 100% false with our fans.

You can go back through every match thread, and there is evidence to the contrary...even when we win.

 

[ilikecheese]

How did we win a draw? I mean the cup one, yeah, but again we turn to the league, and the score is 1:1... And that was a week or something after the cup game?

Won it through lottery, then couldn't win it in the league. If there was no shootout rule, it's a draw, so we relied on luck to get through the cup game.

As Davek said then that means 6 of our 15 major trophies are just down to dumb luck then. Doesn't diminish the fact that we won them.

 

[davek]

What if it's because we've been used to finishing top 7 and above for the majority of the last decade? 7th is nowhere of course, and neither is bottom half but 7th at least gives you hope, and means we'd have won a lot more games than we currently have both this season and last.

Are we not right to expect that standards are maintained or even bettered, especially seeing as Martinez has a squad widely believed to be the best in years?

I imagine if we'd have finished at least in the top half last season, and weren't currently bottom half, that frustrations wouldn't be half of what they are now.

Frustrations are completely understandable. I only take issue with a call to dump the manager. Home form has been very poor, to say the least. But I do also think the whole season hasn't been judged here. The cup runs (still ongoing) have been marginalised when, last time I checked, they are the ONLY realistic chance for this club to win something. That downgrading in large part is down to a lot of people viewing the cup(s) as a problem rather than a boost to our season...they see it as a problem because it offers the manager a valid reason to point to as proof that we can compete with this team, and it it's a problem because most would accept that a cup final appearance and a cup win would take their 'quarry' out of reach.

I cant be doing with that. The team deserve a lot of credit for being the most consistent cup performers this season in England, as does the manager.

There can be no downgrading of trophies that represent a huge chunk of our successes down the years and define our identity.

 

[Groucho]

Frustrations are completely understandable. I only take issue with a call to dump the manager. Home form has been very poor, to say the least. But I do also think the whole season hasn't been judged here. The cup runs (still ongoing) have been marginalised when, last time I checked, they are the ONLY realistic chance for this club to win something. That downgrading in large part is down to a lot of people viewing the cup(s) as a problem rather than a boost to our season...they see it as a problem because it offers the manager a valid reason to point to as proof that we can compete with this team, and it it's a problem because most would accept that a cup final appearance and a cup win would take their 'quarry' out of reach.

I cant be doing with that. The team deserve a lot of credit for being the most consistent cup performers this season in England, as does the manager.

There can be no downgrading of trophies that represent a huge chunk of our successes down the years and define our identity.

Again I reiterate my desire to win the cup this season.

I'm just simultaneously concerned with our league form.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Yeah...it's kind of the nature of this thread really. The Out crowd struggle to give the manager any credit...even when we win.

And my statement about only caring about results on not how we got them, is 100% false with our fans.

You can go back through every match thread, and there is evidence to the contrary...even when we win.

Personally I'm out because we have a small patch of form and then keep on struggling along, especially in the league, I've said it here several times that I maintain my view when we win, and critique is warranted when we don't do something right even if we win - i.e. poor defending, still absolutely clearly not working on either attacking or defending corners etc.

Equally I've given credit to Martinez where it's due - some games he's been spot on and it's hard to argue against it, but people like @davek go OH WHY ARE YOU NOT WRITING NOW OUT BRIGADE ARE YOU BACK IN YOUR HOLES HaHaHa, whereas in reality people have said their well dones and all and just go back to not grinding the same axe over and over, which people seem to be very adamant about.

What's been said has mostly been said already, and this is just annoying. It's why most steer clear of this thread, as it's "but why is X not being done", and the reply is usually "BUT 72 POINTS LAD" and it's shockingly annoying.

And as you said - yeah, it's luck we've won a penalty shoot out. It's (bad) luck we've probably lost a few, but that's how they go - sometimes a small thing is a boost. The RS won der best final in der CL history lad by being lucky, yup. We took Chelsea out because Heitinga shoulder barged Cole and that made him miss the penalty. Crowds also play a massive part in them (see recent Atletico (IIRC) shootout).

And I'm still yet to see the answer to the question "If we don't win the cup, then what?". I've asked only about 50 times probably, and no one comes up with a reason. Are we progressing? Yeah, in the cup, great stuff. Our home form is absolutely crap, our general play is crap until our backs are to the wall, the manager prefers to blame the fans, refs, something else, players, weather, heck knows what else, but not admit an absolutely obvious mistake. Maybe people don't like that?

If we don't win the FA, we're in danger of finishing even lower than last year. I see the trend, do you think others don't? I also remember a certain Wigan team winning the FA cup and looking great in their cup matches, but being shockingly horrible in the league and losing by 8 goals on several occasions. We're not that far back yet, but at this point the only hope is to win cup matches, as we all know what happens in the league, and especially league home games.

 

[MikeH72]

Frustrations are completely understandable. I only take issue with a call to dump the manager. Home form has been very poor, to say the least. But I do also think the whole season hasn't been judged here. The cup runs (still ongoing) have been marginalised when, last time I checked, they are the ONLY realistic chance for this club to win something. That downgrading in large part is down to a lot of people viewing the cup(s) as a problem rather than a boost to our season...they see it as a problem because it offers the manager a valid reason to point to as proof that we can compete with this team, and it it's a problem because most would accept that a cup final appearance and a cup win would take their 'quarry' out of reach.

I cant be doing with that. The team deserve a lot of credit for being the most consistent cup performers this season in England, as does the manager.

There can be no downgrading of trophies that represent a huge chunk of our successes down the years and define our identity.

For someone that talks a lot about downgrading competitions, you seem to downgrade the league quite a bit

"5th is the same as 15th" and other such guff

 

[ilikecheese]

Personally I'm out because we have a small patch of form and then keep on struggling along, especially in the league, I've said it here several times that I maintain my view when we win, and critique is warranted when we don't do something right even if we win - i.e. poor defending, still absolutely clearly not working on either attacking or defending corners etc.

Equally I've given credit to Martinez where it's due - some games he's been spot on and it's hard to argue against it, but people like @davek go OH WHY ARE YOU NOT WRITING NOW OUT BRIGADE ARE YOU BACK IN YOUR HOLES HaHaHa, whereas in reality people have said their well dones and all and just go back to not grinding the same axe over and over, which people seem to be very adamant about.

What's been said has mostly been said already, and this is just annoying. It's why most steer clear of this thread, as it's "but why is X not being done", and the reply is usually "BUT 72 POINTS LAD" and it's shockingly annoying.

And as you said - yeah, it's luck we've won a penalty shoot out. It's (bad) luck we've probably lost a few, but that's how they go - sometimes a small thing is a boost. The RS won der best final in der CL history lad by being lucky, yup. We took Chelsea out because Heitinga shoulder barged Cole and that made him miss the penalty. Crowds also play a massive part in them (see recent Atletico (IIRC) shootout).

And I'm still yet to see the answer to the question "If we don't win the cup, then what?". I've asked only about 50 times probably, and no one comes up with a reason. Are we progressing? Yeah, in the cup, great stuff. Our home form is absolutely crap, our general play is crap until our backs are to the wall, the manager prefers to blame the fans, refs, something else, players, weather, heck knows what else, but not admit an absolutely obvious mistake. Maybe people don't like that?

If we don't win the FA, we're in danger of finishing even lower than last year. I see the trend, do you think others don't? I also remember a certain Wigan team winning the FA cup and looking great in their cup matches, but being shockingly horrible in the league and losing by 8 goals on several occasions. We're not that far back yet, but at this point the only hope is to win cup matches, as we all know what happens in the league, and especially league home games.

As I have stated on several occasions I am firmly in the 'Out' category. My reasoning is different though.

I'd prefer to have patience, but really the fans are demanding it. I guess that's the way things are in the modern instant gratification time we live in with 24 hours news cycles.

Even if we win the Cup I think we have to make a change. If we don't we will remain with a fractured fan base until he is ultimately gone.

At this point we could win all of our remaining games, including the Cup, and it wouldn't matter. The first signs of trouble would be met with the ire it has over the last two seasons. He was an incredibly polarizing hire, and when things first started to go wrong last season, it was met with folks wanting him out. I mean the negativity really has been off the charts even from the first three games in charge to the first window when we got Rom, Barry, and Del on loan. OMG...loans are not permanent signings...I must fume and be negative.

Anyway, I do not want to go into another season with the cloud of negativity that has been there even before we kicked a ball under Martinez.

 

[LAToffee]

I think a poll asking forum members whether they think Martinez should be sacked even if we won the fa cup would yield interesting results. I don't know how to do polls. Personally I think it would be a very un-Everton thing to do.

 

[davek]

Average points per season for first three seasons. Harvey 61, Kendal 57, Smith 45, Moyes 53. If Everton get 12 points from the last 9 games Martinez average would be 56.

Martinez has the third highest win percentage of EFC managers who have been in charge over 100 games,(44.8). Only Kendal (47.4) and Catterick(46.5) above him. How's that for a fact.

Absolutely unanswerable.

 

[davek]

For someone that talks a lot about downgrading competitions, you seem to downgrade the league quite a bit

"5th is the same as 15th" and other such guff

Winning it is glorious. 5th, nah.