Roberto Martinez discussion

[Saint Domingo]

Yes I think that's a good post and there's a lot on that.

I think the attitude towards Moyes and Van Gaal belies a wider hypocrisy and snobbery of premier league football. Having selected Moyes it would seem ridiculous to me they sacked him off. Compared to Van Gaal he did in many ways much better. Yes Van Gaal finished 4th not 7th (only a few points higher mind) but like Moyes in the league was miles off the pace. In the cup competitions Moyes got to the semi final of the league Cup. Van Gaal got nowhere near a Semi final. Moyes also got them quite far in the Champions league, and went out to Bayern which there is no shame in.

Moyes also had players like Ferdinand undermining him and generally being a knob. I think that layer had to be moved on, Having done that it would seem silly to bin him. The fan fare around Van Gaal is majorly annoying. His signings have been poor and the best signings he had were the ones Moyes identified. Herrera is a fantastic player and had Moyes been able to get him who knows if things would have been different. Likewise Shaw looked very good this season and Mata has done very well. Show boat players like Depay and Di Maria haven't cut it by comparison.

Had Moyes had the money Van Gaal had I don't see how he'd have done any worse, lets put it that way.

I agree with you entirely about him comments re Baines/Fellaini. I think there was a lot of good will towards him at that point. It stunk of your ex trying to needlessly run your nose in it after an amicable split. Making a comment about your new girlfriend that she is ugly enough to be with you on social media or whatever. There was no need for it and I think a lot of people relished his demise after that. It was a great shame and out of character. I think he was trying to show he was a big manager with a big ego to fill United at that point. The problem is he isn't a big character, with a big ego and it just looked completely stupid. I think a lot of fans turned on him then.

Me I felt saddened by what happened at United. Watching Liverpool rout them and celebrate was painful. Kopites used it as another stick to beat us with and I couldn't ever understand why some blues almost joined in to be honest.

As for the rest of the comment I will stick to my guns he got more cautious as time went by. My post probably seemed overly harsh. I was trying to disagree with the idea he was only behaving at Everton thinking of managing United. I don't believe that at all. I also don't see how he'd have known since Autumn, there's no way United would have settled for Moyes in the autumn without considering guys like Mourinho.

It makes a great fictional story though. The evil Moyes always plotting to leave. The amazing United who have such power and control over little old Everton that they pull the puppet strings. The old Geriatric Fergusan mocked for his own Scottish roots and head strong nature and the football world gets to have the last laugh against him. The fact that some Evertonians join in with this nonsensical view of history disappoints me really. Yes we get to laugh at United and Fergusan and most importantly Moyes, however not at the expense of belittling our own club. For some they just don't see that. We are reduced to cheerleaders to what is ostensibly a Kopite falsification and comedy. We don't even get the main part. We get the crumbs of their laughter when they've finished laughing at us to poke Moyes. For many Evertonians they've fallen so low they are happy to take that.

However while I don't think he knew he was going to manage United. I think in his last 3 or 4 years at Everton he was just keeping up appearances. I think he had maximised his position and developed a method of finishing in the top 7 which made him look a miracle worker. He was happy to go along with that too. He knew eventually another offer would come.

You could be right, the reasons behind it? Personally I think he just took a massive body blow and became completely demotivated. I think his job from 2003-2009 was unparalleled by anyone in the prem (apart from the guys in the top 4). O'Neill was splashing cash around making a strong Villa side but on meagre resources Moyes had an Everton side that were regarded as the best of the rest. Between 2006 and 2010 there was qualification for Europe 3 seasons in a row, a league cup semi, an DA cup final, our record points total. We'd gone head to head with Liverpool over three games in 09 and genuinely looked the better side over the three despite 2 games being at Anfield. We were consistent.

Then injury struck. Arteta Jagielka Yakubu (ok and Anichebe to a lesser extent) decimated. Then he had to watch as Lescott, Pienaar were sold then Arteta who was never the same, even Yakubu to service the debt. Three Windows without a fee being paid for a first team player. Concurrently the old top 4 had disintegrated with Liverpool's meltdown and Spurs fired by Gareth Bale took that spot that Moyes had built towards for so long. Then City arrived and completely changed the whole scene. Moyes probably knew at this point that the game was up. After trying to crack the old top 4 an even more powerful one was in place. I think it's to his credit though that he turned us around from that 2010/11 slump with the purchase of new players (most of whom have key roles in Martibezs squad). He probably knew in his heart of hearts though that picking up Gibson for 500k no matter how much of a bargain he was could no longer challenge the likes of City spending 40 million on Aguero.

 

[Titus Bramble]

i think people on here say games we won with subs were flukes. People say things like, "we only started playing well when barkley and deulofeu came on v norwich" - just because subs come and do more damage than the starting XI in games, doesn't mean the manager got it wrong/ Just think it's a glowing trend with modern football fans and possibly the british negative perspective.

We won plenty of points in Martinez's first season because the substitutions he made.

I also don't get people saying 'Howard saved us that match' or 'Martinez got out of jail because of Joel'. The keepers are there to stop the ball going in our net, all keepers make saves every game.

 

[By god I'm blue]

We won plenty of points in Martinez's first season because the substitutions he made.

I also don't get people saying 'Howard saved us that match' or 'Martinez got out of jail because of Joel'. The keepers are there to stop the ball going in our net, all keepers make saves every game.

I used the Spurs match as en axample of the keeper saving us a point as a way of showing it was another poor performance I guess. I appreciate it is his job and what he is there for.

 

[sageyefc]

I used the Spurs match as en axample of the keeper saving us a point as a way of showing it was another poor performance I guess. I appreciate it is his job and what he is there for.

But at the same time if we had our shooting boots on we'd have turned a few draws into wins. Theres been good performances and poor ones, now we have to kick on now with an easier run in coming up

 

[blarger]

Moyes identified. Herrera is a fantastic player and had Moyes been able to get him who knows if things would have been different. Likewise Shaw looked very good this season

This isn't true. Man U scouted these players and gave Moyes a list of players they were looking at when he joined. Strootman was another one on the list (well done on dodging that one Moyes).

It's a complete myth Moyes came up with these players. Fergie said they'd tried to sign Shaw when he was sixteen. He only went back in after initially rejecting Herrera because he was desperate, but once again dithering Dave dithered and that deal couldn't happen. United were looking at Herrera since they where humiliated in the Europa League by Athletic Bilbao.

 

[toffeejack]

We won plenty of points in Martinez's first season because the substitutions he made.

I also don't get people saying 'Howard saved us that match' or 'Martinez got out of jail because of Joel'. The keepers are there to stop the ball going in our net, all keepers make saves every game.

yeah, we were unlucky because their keeper had a blinder. nobody ever says we were unlucky because their striker had a blinder when they score a hat-trick, for example.

 

[Saint Domingo]

This isn't true. Man U scouted these players and gave Moyes a list of players they were looking at when he joined. Strootman was another one on the list (well done on dodging that one Moyes).

It's a complete myth Moyes came up with these players. Fergie said they'd tried to sign Shaw when he was sixteen. He only went back in after initially rejecting Herrera because he was desperate, but once again dithering Dave dithered and that deal couldn't happen. United were looking at Herrera since they where humiliated in the Europa League by Athletic Bilbao.

So without a shred of evidence you're quite happy to give United the credit for scouting Herrera and suggesting him to the manager, but all the blame falls on Moyes for not getting the deal done? Rubbish. If United really did operate in that transfer committee way (doubtful as they allowed him to bring in Fellaini and Mata) then they are to blame for not getting the deal done.

What is more than likely is United, like most top clubs, are scouting a huge number of players, and Herrera will have been on a midfield shortlist (as he would be at most top clubs). Moyes identified that he wanted the player and left it to Woodward who showed his naivety that window. The summer after United ressurected the deal as Van Gaal was not opposed to it. Herrera's rocky start under Van Gaal would suggest he was not his pick though. That suggests the player was either Uniteds pick and Moyes didn't want him, or Moyes wanted him and United failed to get him. In either scenario this dithering persona does not ring true. The last minute purchase of Fellaini suggests that Woodeard panicked after missing out on all of Moyes' top targets so Moyes ordered him to bring in a player he knew would be available.

In true GOT tradition though it's easier just to peddle the line that everything Moyes touched turned to rubbish supposedly.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Show me where somebody said it was a fluke?

I was talking to someone earlier, either davek or rudden about Martinez and his persistence on playing Naismith wide instead of a winger, I said the original decision to play besic wide left was baffling, then he brought Naismith on over Lennon, Mirallas and Delboy. Its his stubbornness to change things that makes people doubt him.

 

[catcherintherye]

So without a shred of evidence you're quite happy to give United the credit for scouting Herrera and suggesting him to the manager, but all the blame falls on Moyes for not getting the deal done? Rubbish. If United really did operate in that transfer committee way (doubtful as they allowed him to bring in Fellaini and Mata) then they are to blame for not getting the deal done.

What is more than likely is United, like most top clubs, are scouting a huge number of players, and Herrera will have been on a midfield shortlist (as he would be at most top clubs). Moyes identified that he wanted the player and left it to Woodward who showed his naivety that window. The summer after United ressurected the deal as Van Gaal was not opposed to it. Herrera's rocky start under Van Gaal would suggest he was not his pick though. That suggests the player was either Uniteds pick and Moyes didn't want him, or Moyes wanted him and United failed to get him. In either scenario this dithering persona does not ring true. The last minute purchase of Fellaini suggests that Woodeard panicked after missing out on all of Moyes' top targets so Moyes ordered him to bring in a player he knew would be available.

In true GOT tradition though it's easier just to peddle the line that everything Moyes touched turned to rubbish supposedly.

Yes exactly its a rather silly line. If you speak to most United fans they blame Woodward not Moyes for the cockup of that summer as well. All this "dithering Davie" nonsense is the behaviour of fans of a small club to be honest, too frightened to hold the powers that be accountable.

Of course it is highly unlikely Moyes single handedly scouted Herrera he was a top player even then. However he was the one who tried to bring him in. However he identified he was the player they wanted and busted a gut to get him. I think he has proven himself to be a very Moyes type player. Just as with Shaw he has played well this season. Fellaini did well last season. Had Moyes have been given time I think he'd have identified some very good players. Not the sort who look good on Fifa but who make a good team. Whether he could have made them winners is open for debate though.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

In fairness mate I don't really know how we can say that Besic was an awful choice on the left? He only played for about 5 minutes and looked quite promising there, had a good run etc. He obviously wanted a combative player in there to help deal with Ivanovic and give Galloway some support who's previous game against City was his worst so far, he got badly exposed. This was in many ways down to Kone playing on the left and not tracking back.

I think what you say contradicts itself. On the one hand you say he doesn't change the formation to suit the opposition. You then criticise him for doing this against Chelsea by playing a tackling Central Midfield on the left wing to take account of their threat from right back. The two statements contradict.

I understand why you think I may be contradicting myself but if you read further back, my main gripe with bobby was about not playing wingers. He started Besic on the left that game, now I know that counts as a change but it wasn't bringing any balance to the team - which again was one of the debatable points I brought up, we played well that game but initial thoughts were, why besic ? Why Naismith ? There was three players on the bench, natural wingers that should of either A) Started or B) Came on in Besic's injury.

The mans reluctance to play 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with two wingers is what my problem was. The Chelsea and Southampton results were no flukes.

 

[MACCA75]

Lol people still talking about 'Dirthering Davie'?? Would have thought that would be put to bed by the way Everton have gone about their transfer business since - ie in exactly the same manner. The manager scrambling about on deadline day for players, and missing out on top targets more often than not.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Lol people still talking about 'Dirthering Davie'?? Would have thought that would be put to bed by the way Everton have gone about their transfer business since - ie in exactly the same manner. The manager scrambling about on deadline day for players, and missing out on top targets more often than not.

Did Chelsea dither for Stones? No. Sometimes the deal just doesn't happen as simple as that. These times increase in number when you are trying to entice quality players with very little transfer budget. You can't just throw money at it to push it through like Liverpool did with Firmino. Moyes could have ultradecisively hoarded up a load of rubbish players who were desperate to play for Everton, what good would it have done though. Every window was the same, paper linked us to some rubbish player, Newcastle or West Ham massively overpaid to make the deal happen, Moyes got blasted as a ditherer, on the last day he'd bring out the deal he'd been working on, said player stats at Everton for years and years increasing hugely in market value. Dithering Dave indeed.

 

[deipnosophist]

I want Martinez to set us up to smash a team rather than to KITAP1. That's all.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Be quiet on here Sunday if we win.

 

[USABlue]

I seem to have stumbled onto the moyes thread, can someone kindly point me towards the one for our actual manager?