Roberto Martinez discussion

[Deleted member 24970]

That's called a squad system mate. The 'unsettled' nature of the team is Martinez reshuffling the pack as he sees fit. It's what all other managers do. We dont live in an era when 14 players are used for all the games in one season anymore.

Im not that naïve to think that only a select 14 players will play every game in a rigid formation. My point im trying to make is that he doesn't change the team to suit the opposition. If we have a team in the bottom 10 coming to Goodison to snatch a point then we need to go 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with two wingers to break the 11 men down - but we don't. He will play 4-5-1 with maybe Lennon wide and Naismith on the other side. I even point to the dreadful choice of playing besic on the left against Chelsea - he then throws Naismith on the left, when everybody who was in attendance that day wanted a natural winger, even you cannot disagree he got lucky with that one.

 

[catcherintherye]

It's obvious what he means, and that slap headed Kopite knows it too. The full context to what he was saying is that Howard - with a young inexperienced back four - contributes to settling them down. That is over and above his own contribution of goal keeping.

Now, whether you accept the truth of that statement or not, it does at least make sense.

That Kopite hack should confine himself to defending the lunatic german they've just employed and the pidging English he deploys.

Yes the experience is what he brings. The problem with this though I have to say is that Howard doesn't really possess the skills that come with a lot of experience goalkeepers. He's not positionally very aware, he's not consistent and he is not decisive. I also get the impression from his book he is far from a Saint in his overall attitude towards Martinez. It's very clear that the defence take no confidence in him whatsoever (aside from Jagielka) and Stones in particular is fuming with him.

I said it last season and I'll say it again, Martinez's biggest (and probably only) major mistake for me has been sticking with Howard. I completely understand Martinez's logic but it just doesn't really cut it with Howard.

Jagielka though I am critical I can understand why he would pick him. Barry who gets dogs abuse again I can agree why he is a permanent fixture. Both of these lads you can show their experience on the pitch. Howard doesn't though. It's not that he's even that bad but he doesn't show the skills of an experienced keeper.

I said in the summer we should have moved for a Shay Given if he wanted an experienced keeper. Or a Schwartzer. People mocked that suggestion but at least they show their experience and act as a calming process.

I think part of Martinez's outlook is that Howard or any goalkeeper need to have the confidence of being number 1 to perform better. There is a question of how long this can last though. Sometimes you have to cut your losses with a player and realise they are never going to get any better. His selection is starting to haunt Martinez like how Neville in central midfield over Barkley haunted Moyes. He should have moved Howard on in the summer.

 

[catcherintherye]

Moyes always had one eye on Everton and one eye on United. If you view his actions through that prism you wont go far wrong understanding them. He was reluctant to do too much of anything that had risk to it. He knew that to impress his suitors and make SAFs task of installing him easier he had to avoid embarrassing defeats and a slip down the table. That governed every decision he ever made here. He was risk averse, and that meant less indulgence on younger players and less chances taken at the back and being caught in possession. It also meant more reactive football, rather than going and dictating the game or keeping going and killing games off we had the lead in.

Yes. I don't think he was ever promised the United job until very late on. It's clear from Fergusons recent interview they considered Klopp, Mourinho & Moyes. Guardiola didn't fancy it. Bizarely as a committee they plopped for Moyes, but Ferguson is right when he says it wasn't all his fault. The bizarre idea that a business with shareholders can let 1 person pick someone is nonsense. Bobby Charlton even said all of the United Committee selected Moyes over Mourinho. That might seem baffling now but they all made that mistake and through Ferguson under the bus for it.

As for the rest it became clear that Moyes essentially recognised a lucrative and easy way for him to keep his reputation in tact. Spend little money, don't rock the boat and keep a settled consistent squad that would always be the best of the rest. It was from that point that he was really putting Moyes ahead of Everton. If not for the United job, by the end for any job that would have come up.

Kenwright in all honesty should have moved him on. Especially when you consider the low bids that came in for Baines and Fellaini is is baffling to me he was allowed to stay around the place. It wasn't a situation where he said he would just leave, but he was also moving to a competitor and had agreed a deal. It had to be a situation of gardening leave.

I think he is very risk averse though. Kenwrights lack of investment gave him the perfect cover to hide that. His risk aversion could always be masked by incompetency at the club. In a way I think in the end he accepted and even liked that.

 

[catcherintherye]

Im not that naïve to think that only a select 14 players will play every game in a rigid formation. My point im trying to make is that he doesn't change the team to suit the opposition. If we have a team in the bottom 10 coming to Goodison to snatch a point then we need to go 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with two wingers to break the 11 men down - but we don't. He will play 4-5-1 with maybe Lennon wide and Naismith on the other side. I even point to the dreadful choice of playing besic on the left against Chelsea - he then throws Naismith on the left, when everybody who was in attendance that day wanted a natural winger, even you cannot disagree he got lucky with that one.

In fairness mate I don't really know how we can say that Besic was an awful choice on the left? He only played for about 5 minutes and looked quite promising there, had a good run etc. He obviously wanted a combative player in there to help deal with Ivanovic and give Galloway some support who's previous game against City was his worst so far, he got badly exposed. This was in many ways down to Kone playing on the left and not tracking back.

I think what you say contradicts itself. On the one hand you say he doesn't change the formation to suit the opposition. You then criticise him for doing this against Chelsea by playing a tackling Central Midfield on the left wing to take account of their threat from right back. The two statements contradict.

 

[By god I'm blue]

Surely you're not going to base your opinion of whether Martinez is doing a good or bad job on one game?

It's not one game mate.

We just drew with Norwich at home and they were the better side, after picking up 1 point out of 9.

I said last season he should have until November this season to show we are going the right way. In hindsight you could say that was good timing looking at the run of fixtures ahead.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

1 point out of 9 after playing arguably our hardest games of the season, and the Norwich game whilst not great was a cup game were anything is possible just look at Sheffield Wednesday for proof of that.

 

[By god I'm blue]

1 point out of 9 after playing arguably our hardest games of the season, and the Norwich game whilst not great was a cup game were anything is possible just look at Sheffield Wednesday for proof of that.

Hmmmm.....excuses excuses.

Read your post.....all you are doing is making excuses for it.

We either have the best squad of players we have had in years or we don't! If we do he should be getting more out of them, simple as that.

West Ham beat 2 of those sides on their own pitch, it's how you approach these things.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

Hmmmm.....excuses excuses.

Read your post.....all you are doing is making excuses for it.

We wither have the best squad of players we have had in years or we don't! If we do he should be getting more out of them, simple as that.

West Ham beat 2 of those sides on their own pitch, it's how you approach these things.

I'm just looking at the bigger picture here unlike yourself who's decided for some reason Sunderland on Sunday is some sort of make or break game for Martinez.

No football club has the divine right to beat another, every game is unique with many varied and often unexpected out comes. Simply stating club x beat club y means nothing.

 

[By god I'm blue]

I'm just looking at the bigger picture here unlike yourself who's decided for some reason Sunderland on Sunday is some sort of make or break game for Martinez.

No football club has the divine right to beat another, every game is unique with many varied and often unexpected out comes. Simply stating club x beat club y means nothing.

I have covered the bigger picture in other posts mate. I am pleased he brings youth through, I am pleased that we have a squad assembled which should be good enough to challenge for a European spot.

I am not basing it purely on 1 game. Our form from the start of season 2014-2015 until now has been middle of the table and nothing other than looking like we are going backwards.

I cannot believe you could not agree with that? Yes we are playing a bit better this season than last, but that's hardly worth jizzing into our donnay socks about as last season was laborious, painful and at times damn right dire!

This season has seen an improvement in the play a little and being lucky to play Chelsea and Southampton whilst they were going through bad spells. The rest of it has been a little bit grim results wise! Hence me thinking that Sunday wouldn't be a bad place to start changing all of that!

We have to forget season 2013-2014, that is a distant memory now, he can't dine out on that forever.

 

[blueblue]

I think the manager probably knows he has a problem with the goalkeeper but feels his hands are tied just at the moment.
We are still a full two months away from the next transfer window. We will be missing our most experienced defender and captain for all of that time. I wonder how Tim Howard would react to being dropped , possibly not well, and that could leave the manager with a relatively untested keeper in goals and Tim Howard possibly causing friction in the background.
I would say that Tim Howard is one of the leaders in the dressing room , RM has already more or less stated this. I think that either in January, but more likely in the summer, he will be moved out of the club altogether and away from having an influence at the club.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Yes. I don't think he was ever promised the United job until very late on. It's clear from Fergusons recent interview they considered Klopp, Mourinho & Moyes. Guardiola didn't fancy it. Bizarely as a committee they plopped for Moyes, but Ferguson is right when he says it wasn't all his fault. The bizarre idea that a business with shareholders can let 1 person pick someone is nonsense. Bobby Charlton even said all of the United Committee selected Moyes over Mourinho. That might seem baffling now but they all made that mistake and through Ferguson under the bus for it.

As for the rest it became clear that Moyes essentially recognised a lucrative and easy way for him to keep his reputation in tact. Spend little money, don't rock the boat and keep a settled consistent squad that would always be the best of the rest. It was from that point that he was really putting Moyes ahead of Everton. If not for the United job, by the end for any job that would have come up.

Kenwright in all honesty should have moved him on. Especially when you consider the low bids that came in for Baines and Fellaini is is baffling to me he was allowed to stay around the place. It wasn't a situation where he said he would just leave, but he was also moving to a competitor and had agreed a deal. It had to be a situation of gardening leave.

I think he is very risk averse though. Kenwrights lack of investment gave him the perfect cover to hide that. His risk aversion could always be masked by incompetency at the club. In a way I think in the end he accepted and even liked that.

Think there's elements of this that are a bit harsh. Firstly with Moyes' time at Utd, compare it with LVG's. The media pressure on Moyes was unbelievable 'this squad are title winners only the title will do, you have to play the United way 442 with wingers, keep things as they are, you need to keep RVP and Rooney satisfied, you've got to play youth players that's the United tradition, the money is there but we will never overspend if there is no value.' How could he put his own mark on that? It wasn't even his philosophy of playing. When he reverted to 4231 around Christmas with Januzaj and Mata he actually got some decent results but got slammed for it because RVP was out. Not to mention that the likes of Ferdinand Vidic and RVP downed tools for him in a way that Rooney Welbeck and Januzaj didn't. Moyes wanted Bale Herrera Kroos, the board didn't deliver any of them apart from a reserve youth left back. He then panic bought Fellaini as Woodward bungled his targets.

Compare with what LVG got, a media saying 'this squad is rubbish and needs a clear out, top 4 is a good finish now, United need investment, it's time for a new approach'. So LVG sells off almost the entire squad including RVP, Evra and other older players he saw as not his players, and also pushed out Welbeck, Cleverley and Januzaj (so much for keeping the United way). Woodward desperate to atone for the summer before splashed out eye watering amounts on Di Maria Blind Rojo Shaw Herrera Falcao. Van Gaal then got to instill his own philosophy ( as far removed from Ferguson's as is probably possible) and scraped to fourth (largely thanks to a Suarezless Liverpool) on the back of a run of decent performances where Fellaini and Mata were his best players (Moyes' buys!) along with Herrera (a Moyes target).

I honestly think if LVG had followed Ferguson with those limitations then he would have met a similar fate. Moyes with a remit to do what he wanted and spend whatever he wanted with a group of now humbled players would probably have got top 4 playing his way (last year was an easy year for top 4) and he'd still be the manager now.

As often was the case with Motes he was not very lucky and the timing was wrong.

My one dark cloud against him ha his comments on Baines and Fellaini, no need for them. This idea that he didn't work for Evertob towards the end though is baffling. His 07-09 team was ruthlessly stripped apart and from scratch he sold Rodwell and started a painful process of rebuilding us, Gibson, Jelavic, Oviedo, Naismith, Mirallas all came in and the turnaround was very quick, we were back in cup semi finals and pushing Europe within a season. He then went and brought in Stones whilst continuing to give the likes of Barkley game time. Our home record in his final season was fantastic and the team was playing great stuff. Does this look like a manager who only worked for himself and wasn't bothered about the future of the football club?

 

[Ihaters]

To me its clear, Dave.
Moyes offered security. Security that we'd finish in certain parameters of the league, winning nothing but always maintaining respectability. We were risk averse throughout the club. Plucky Everton. Out tactics were built on the opposition having the ball, keeping tight and eeking out a 1-0.

Martinez has asked us to take responsibility. To take the game to the opposition by having possession and trying to break teams down. The highs will be high but whilst relying on the inexperience and inconsistency of youth, the lows may be lower that that under moyes. He needs money and time, both transfer windows and time to develop the gifted youngsters he is integrating.

Its the unknown Evertonians don't like. Feels wrong after 11 years of safety.

Each to their own, but I like the club setting out to win with a style which I, and many others despite what @Saint Domingo insinuates, enjoy and will enjoy the more it's perfected.

What a load of patronising twaddle.. I suspect (though unlike you, I don't know the inner thoughts of others) most people liked Moyes because he improved us after having very little to spend, following a decade of decline and loss of pride, and gave us back a lot of respect, making us a team to be feared.. Martinez conversely had a good season, then managed to take us back to bottom half having spent a lot of money. Its not fear, its simple appreciation of a good job.

Personally I find a lot of our play boring under Martinez, its getting more interesting, now he's having to mix it up a bit, but remember post injury 'Arteta the Crab'?.. The anger some people had at Moyes for playing him?.. well last year that was our template for the whole team's footballing style, this strange idealization of total football that Martinez has us playing is a bit weird imo and largely inaccurate.

 

[Kiwi]

I can see where he is coming from in theory with regards to Howards experience.
With Jags and Baines out and possibly Coleman too that leaves us with a very inexperienced backline of Browning Stones FM and Galloway. You could argue Howards experience is crucial is keeping them playing together well with cohesion. That said I still think Joel is who we should pick to play.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I have covered the bigger picture in other posts mate. I am pleased he brings youth through, I am pleased that we have a squad assembled which should be good enough to challenge for a European spot.

I am not basing it purely on 1 game. Our form from the start of season 2014-2015 until now has been middle of the table and nothing other than looking like we are going backwards.

I cannot believe you could not agree with that? Yes we are playing a bit better this season than last, but that's hardly worth jizzing into our donnay socks about as last season was laborious, painful and at times damn right dire!

This season has seen an improvement in the play a little and being lucky to play Chelsea and Southampton whilst they were going through bad spells. The rest of it has been a little bit grim results wise! Hence me thinking that Sunday wouldn't be a bad place to start changing all of that!

We have to forget season 2013-2014, that is a distant memory now, he can't dine out on that forever.

How can you claim our form is mid table and going backwards since 2014-15 one minute and then say this season has seen an improvement? That makes no sense at all.

As for the "grim" results we've only lost 3 times so far and those defeats were to teams that most people will expect to contend for the league title, and it was only against Utd that we were convincingly beaten on what was a very emotional day for the club. Looking at the run of games we've had and the injuries so far it's been a decent start, far from grim, and we've built a steady platform to progress from.

I also can't see how on the one hand you say 2013/14 is a distant memory that he can't dine out on forever and then beat him over the head with last season? Last season alone isn't a true representation of Martinez's time with us to date, it's just a convenient stick to beat him with that suits your agenda.

Of course it could be better but like you've said we're improving and like you've acknowledge we've a young team, these things never happen over night and for a club of our means we need an organic process if we want to improve and that means giving the manager time and not setting arbitrary deadlines like Sunday's game to stop backing the manager.

 

[toffeejack]

Yes the experience is what he brings. The problem with this though I have to say is that Howard doesn't really possess the skills that come with a lot of experience goalkeepers. He's not positionally very aware, he's not consistent and he is not decisive. I also get the impression from his book he is far from a Saint in his overall attitude towards Martinez. It's very clear that the defence take no confidence in him whatsoever (aside from Jagielka) and Stones in particular is fuming with him.

I said it last season and I'll say it again, Martinez's biggest (and probably only) major mistake for me has been sticking with Howard. I completely understand Martinez's logic but it just doesn't really cut it with Howard.

Jagielka though I am critical I can understand why he would pick him. Barry who gets dogs abuse again I can agree why he is a permanent fixture. Both of these lads you can show their experience on the pitch. Howard doesn't though. It's not that he's even that bad but he doesn't show the skills of an experienced keeper.

I said in the summer we should have moved for a Shay Given if he wanted an experienced keeper. Or a Schwartzer. People mocked that suggestion but at least they show their experience and act as a calming process.

I think part of Martinez's outlook is that Howard or any goalkeeper need to have the confidence of being number 1 to perform better. There is a question of how long this can last though. Sometimes you have to cut your losses with a player and realise they are never going to get any better. His selection is starting to haunt Martinez like how Neville in central midfield over Barkley haunted Moyes. He should have moved Howard on in the summer.

he's consistently crap.