Roberto Martinez discussion

[Goat]

It's like all stuff from sources like 'Goal' and 'football365' (and disreputable dailys) a trawl of fan forums to get the skeleton structure of an article on which they hang the saggy flesh of some of the most overblown criticisms amongst fans about their players/manager. Utter bunkum that's a glorified blog.

A list:

• He says we should realistically be breaking into the top four. What utter nonsense. Based on what? Our massive CL like spending? It's a knuckle head assertion he's scooped up off a forum that's been repeated on numerous occasions there.

Based on the talented group of players he can pick from

• He argues we have stability 'and yet they're without a trophy for 20 years'. Erm, yes? How in the name of all that's holy is that down to Martinez?

3 years and counting

• He's stating there's nothing beyond a first team at Everton - an assertion that beggars belief and just about clinches the suspicion that he's really not au fait with Everton at all.

Our back up players are Naismith and McGeady

• He falls into the trap of condemning Everton at this stage as some mid-table fodder club when a cursory glance at the spread of points shows exactly how tight the table is down to 11th position and that no team is a comfortable top half of the table team. A bit of exaggeration to work his 'argument' in and to cover his tracks.

10th is mid table

• He states Martinez might not be as good as everyone suggests and proceeds to list his failings from last season onward without a proper scope of all of his time here. That's important because the season he omitted to mention proved beyond doubt that this manager can take a club like Everton and get an excellent season out of them. Oh, he also forgot to mention the small matter of a cup run this season that sees us on the cusp of a final appearance. Funny that. Must have slipped his mind.

Moyes team

• The working in of words like 'fraud' and 'spoofer' tells me all I need to know of that cut of that 'journalist'. A fraud who creates a club out of nothing at Swansea, wins a cup with a backwater club like Wigan, gets a well established PL club like Everton their best ever PL points total (not just beating Moyes and everyone else's attempts but smashing right through their best efforts), has us standing one step away from Wembley this season. That manager who did that being called a 'fraud' by some cub reporter who's scratching a living knocking out tosh like this. Laughable.

Moyes best efforts got us CL football and 3 trips to Wembley
Hope that helps.

It didnt help at all.

 

[davek]

It didnt help at all.

...some people are beyond help.

 

[Goat]

...some people are beyond help.

Ive asked Santa for a new manager and ive been good all year.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Stanley Parker]

I don't read any of those ridiculous articles so am not going to bother with your counter points, but why do you keep saying we're on the cusp of a cup final? We've got two games v arguably the best side in the league before we get there. It's like building up to a quarter final of the FA cup and saying that we're at the cusp of a final. Even a large first leg lead does not put the tie beyond the reach of City. If Silva Aguero and Kompany are fit then they are capable of anything. It will be a monumental effort to get through.

They didn't look the best side in the league on Monday night.

We can score goals against the current defence - we can give them two good games.

Manchester City fans are arguably the most pessimistic fans in the league, easily exceeding ours.

 

[davek]

Ive asked Santa for a new manager and ive been good all year.

Fingers crossed.

This is all you're getting mate....with no one to fill it.....

 

[Saint Domingo]

They didn't look the best side in the league on Monday night.

We can score goals against the current defence - we can give them two good games.

Manchester City fans are arguably the most pessimistic fans in the league, easily exceeding ours.

Where did I say we couldn't beat them? I agree with you that we can score v anyone and we can win. I just wouldn't quite say that with 180 mins to play v City that we are on the 'cusp' of a cup final.

 

[sportbillyblue]

Telegraph via Toffeeweb... up to due diligence now by all accounts...but that could scupper it

thanks mate .... had a proper scour since. Seems like a variation on the same theme. I'd love to believe but ....

 

[Goat]

This is all you're getting mate....with no one to fill it.....

You know if the utter clown had 1 of them and played Besic I would be happy for him to keep his job.

But he doesnt, on both counts.

TAXI FOR EL LOCO

 

[bluestevon]

It's like all stuff from sources like 'Goal' and 'football365' (and disreputable dailys) a trawl of fan forums to get the skeleton structure of an article on which they hang the saggy flesh of some of the most overblown criticisms amongst fans about their players/manager. Utter bunkum that's a glorified blog.

A list:

• He says we should realistically be breaking into the top four. What utter nonsense. Based on what? Our massive CL like spending? It's a knuckle head assertion he's scooped up off a forum that's been repeated on numerous occasions there.
• He argues we have stability 'and yet they're without a trophy for 20 years'. Erm, yes? How in the name of all that's holy is that down to Martinez?
• He's stating there's nothing beyond a first team at Everton - an assertion that beggars belief and just about clinches the suspicion that he's really not au fait with Everton at all.
• He falls into the trap of condemning Everton at this stage as some mid-table fodder club when a cursory glance at the spread of points shows exactly how tight the table is down to 11th position and that no team is a comfortable top half of the table team. A bit of exaggeration to work his 'argument' in and to cover his tracks.
• He states Martinez might not be as good as everyone suggests and proceeds to list his failings from last season onward without a proper scope of all of his time here. That's important because the season he omitted to mention proved beyond doubt that this manager can take a club like Everton and get an excellent season out of them. Oh, he also forgot to mention the small matter of a cup run this season that sees us on the cusp of a final appearance. Funny that. Must have slipped his mind.
• The working in of words like 'fraud' and 'spoofer' tells me all I need to know of that cut of that 'journalist'. A fraud who creates a club out of nothing at Swansea, wins a cup with a backwater club like Wigan, gets a well established PL club like Everton their best ever PL points total (not just beating Moyes and everyone else's attempts but smashing right through their best efforts), has us standing one step away from Wembley this season. That manager who did that being called a 'fraud' by some cub reporter who's scratching a living knocking out tosh like this. Laughable.

Hope that helps.

He actually says - In theory, Everton should be a strong team with a realistic chance of breaking into the top four. By omitting 'chance' Dave you completely change the entire nature of what is being said

He also says - Additionally, they have stability. Martinez is one of the two managers they have had since 2002, and as teams all around them toss coaches to the wolves at the slightest hint of trouble, Everton maintain that much sought-after state of serenity and consistency, the quality that we are led to believe is the key to success. And yet, they have been without a trophy for 20 years, the longest dry spell in the club’s 137-year history, finished 11th last season and currently sit in the middle of a profoundly average division. - yet again i miss the part you try to say he blames it all on Martinez when frankly he doesn't say it is.

Is their much beyond the starting 11 at us atm, i mean genuinely is their Dave? 2 of that starting 11 is Kone and Howard mate, Naismith, Gibson, Browning, Osman, Besic on the bench, terrifying quality it must be said.

I agree he was most unfair in not listing Martinez achievements from his first season with us in his article, the 5th place cup and the record number of points for a team to miss out on qualifying for a CL spot trophy being especially notable entries into he omitted. He also missed otu as you rightly said, his medal for Creating Swansea football club - had nothing to do with those that followed and they owe all the work of that team to Bobby mate.

P.S. His remit at the start of every single season at Wigan will have been 'keep us up' - 100% guarantee that, not win us a cup mate, regardless of what you want to say he failed in his role as a manager in his final season at Wigan

 

[Aar_the_Toffees]

I've answered this question loads of times on here. Ultimately some people think that whenever Moyes lost a big game he bottled it whereas there's a million excuses (literally) as to why Martinez didn't do exactly the same when he loses one (including the laughable 'yeah but at least we play to win').

There's just too many subjective problems with this sort of thing, as in what constitutes a big game? Moyes is always panned for 'bottling' the 09 cup final. Were the Liverpool Villa Stoke and United games in that run not big games? (Let's not get into us missing our top 3 players against one of Europe's top side at the time).

Equally Martinez gets praised for breathing Arsenal in his first season to overtake them, but the with Champiobs league in our own hands we lost at home to Palace the next game. So which was the big game?

The Wigan game was a massive low point and for me is the only big game you could possibly accuse him of bottling. I'm sure if Martinez had done it though the focus would have been on Neville's errors, Fellaini's desertion and Wigan's net spend profile or something stupid like that.

Personally I am just of the opinion that both managers don't win many big games in the same way lots of other clubs don't because of a lack of quality.

In Martinez's time here we didn't win: the Arsenal QF, the Palace league game, any derby (choked a fair few), the second leg v Kiev, no games v City or Spurs, no away wins aside from beating moyes at United. So we're hardly a big game force under Martinez either. If you want to excuse Martinez because you like him and pan Moyes because you don't that's up to you.

That first group stage game against Wolfsburg was a massive game. If we lost than he would've put himself in a horrible position. Some people defend himself other Europe last season- that was the best win in my opinion.

 

[Huyton Layne]

Remember when we put his image on the side of Goodison. Still waiting for Mike Walker to get the same treatment for the same achievement.

 

[Ihaters]

Don't underestimate the 'small' clubs;

Watford is currently owned by the Pozzo family, which also owns Udinese Calcio in Italy and Granada CF in Spain. They signed Behrami - and 14 more players in the summer. Somebody must be paying their wages.

Crystal Palace showed their ambition by signing Pardew as manager and, in the summer, Cabaye. On 18 December 2015, a new deal was signed with American investors Josh Harris and David Blitzer.

Southampton - owner Katharina Liebherr. The club’s infrastructure has been overhauled and the final cost of modernising the training ground will stand at £38 million. Wages have also increased and the overall bill stood at £55.2 million for 2013-14.

Stoke City is owned by Peter Coates who has steadily strengthened the team.

Wow.. what a terribly low opinion of Everton you seem to have if you think they are reasons for Everton to struggle.

Watford: Lukaku alone cost nearly as much as Watfords first team. 6m record signing included.

We should be struggling against Palace because they signed Pardew and Cabaye? We have Martinez and McCarthy, Barry, Deulofeu, Mori, Lukaku, Kone and so on added to the likes of Stones, Barkley, Coleman, Jagielka and Baines...

Southampton's not the only one to train in world class facilities, as for the further investment, they will still have less to spend than us most seasons, this season their net spend was less than a million, oh and last time I checked (a while ago admittedly we were at 69m wages, probably increased since then).

Stoke have steadily strengthened their squad.. we have also. Our squad has been significantly better than theirs for a long time, we just outspent them and their 3m net spend for the season this year.. .

Those comments you have put up to show why Everton should struggle, massively underestimate the value and quality of Everton's squad or how much we spend on it imo.

We have a squad improved on year by year for well over a decade, full of quality, don't believe the myth that it is not very good, people expect Stones and Lukau and Barkley and Deu or Coleman to be worth 30, 40 or even 50m because they are quality.

We have a very very good squad, its just not being used to its full potential yet. Not one of those clubs you mentioned should be troubling us even remotely for a very long time.

 

[davek]

He actually says - In theory, Everton should be a strong team with a realistic chance of breaking into the top four. By omitting 'chance' Dave you completely change the entire nature of what is being said

Why mention it at all if it's a 'theory' and not really on the cards for a club with our level of spending?

He also says - Additionally, they have stability. Martinez is one of the two managers they have had since 2002, and as teams all around them toss coaches to the wolves at the slightest hint of trouble, Everton maintain that much sought-after state of serenity and consistency, the quality that we are led to believe is the key to success. And yet, they have been without a trophy for 20 years, the longest dry spell in the club’s 137-year history, finished 11th last season and currently sit in the middle of a profoundly average division. - yet again i miss the part you try to say he blames it all on Martinez when frankly he doesn't say it is.

Again, if it's not relevant why mention stability and ending 20 years of lack of silverware? It's nonsensical - worse: it's dog whistling using fan's general frustration built up over two decades to attack a manager in charge for 2 and half seasons.

Is their much beyond the starting 11 at us atm, i mean genuinely is their Dave? 2 of that starting 11 is Kone and Howard mate, Naismith, Gibson, Browning, Osman, Besic on the bench, terrifying quality it must be said.

Saturday we had these starting

Howard
Coleman
Stones
Funes Mori
Baines
Barkley
Barry
Cleverley
Deulofeu
Lukaku
Koné

Realistically, beyond that we have Jagielka, Besic, Galloway, Mirallas, McCarthy who could all command a place in the best teams in the PL. Not really a case of nothing but cast offs beyond the first XI...not many teams outside the financial elite have players who really are first team starters and not starting.

It's funny this though, because a few weeks back most would have been pointing out the strength of this squad what with the younger players in or to come in.

I agree he was most unfair in not listing Martinez achievements from his first season with us in his article, the 5th place cup and the record number of points for a team to miss out on qualifying for a CL spot trophy being especially notable entries into he omitted. He also missed otu as you rightly said, his medal for Creating Swansea football club - had nothing to do with those that followed and they owe all the work of that team to Bobby mate.

P.S. His remit at the start of every single season at Wigan will have been 'keep us up' - 100% guarantee that, not win us a cup mate, regardless of what you want to say he failed in his role as a manager in his final season at Wigan

Well, you did start out your request for me to respond and justify my one word rejection of that 'piece' because you believed it was 'fair and unbiased'. So I'm amazed you're not self applying those qualities to that stuff above, which is just a throwaway back handed criticism of this manager's achievements. And they are achievements too: Swansea were nothing - almost a literally nothing club going nowhere. Martinez laid the blueprint down and, yes, others have faithfully followed it. Wigan: do you think there's many Wigan fans who'd, hand on heart, trade staying up for a season or two longer for the cup win Martinez engineered for them? I dont. That's like winning the European Cup for a club of that description...hold on, it'd actually feel like winning the European Cup for me if Everton won it, it's that long ago we've tasted success. The 5th place trophy? Who mentioned 5th place? 72 points out of Moyes' team was the football equivalent of plaiting sawdust. If you'd gotten Ancelotti or Mourinho in after Moyes left and asked them to get 72 points from that group of players they'd have told you to swing it. Martinez went in and had them playing straight off the bat. How anyone can be dismissive of that feat I have no idea. How soon we forget eh?

 

[Stanley Parker]

Southampton's not the only one to train in world class facilities, as for the further investment, they will still have less to spend than us most seasons, this season their net spend was less than a million

9 September 2015; SAINTS have the 15th most expensively assembled squad in Europe, according to new research. The outlay on the current group of players at St Mary’s is said to amount to about £133m - which is more than clubs including Atletico Madrid, Monaco, Borussia Dortmund, Roma and AC Milan.

The figures come from the International Centre for Sports Studies’ (CIES) Football Observatory, who have calculated how much it has cost teams in Europe’s top five leagues to assemble their squads. They also have the club as seventh in the Premier League - behind only the traditional top six of Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham.

Southampton should be competing with us!

 

[bluestevon]

Why mention it at all if it's a 'theory' and not really on the cards for a club with our level of spending?



Again, if it's not relevant why mention stability and ending 20 years of lack of silverware? It's nonsensical - worse: it's dog whistling using fan's general frustration built up over two decades to attack a manager in charge for 2 and half seasons.



Saturday we had these starting

Howard
Coleman
Stones
Funes Mori
Baines
Barkley
Barry
Cleverley
Deulofeu
Lukaku
Koné

Realistically, beyond that we have Jagielka, Besic, Galloway, Mirallas, McCarthy who could all command a place in the best teams in the PL. Not really a case of nothing but cast offs beyond the first XI...not many teams outside the financial elite have players who really are first team starters and not starting.

It's funny this though, because a few weeks back most would have been pointing out the strength of this squad what with the younger players in or to come in.



Well, you did start out your request for me to respond and justify my one word rejection of that 'piece' because you believed it was 'fair and unbiased'. So I'm amazed you're not self applying those qualities to that stuff above, which is just a throwaway back handed criticism of this manager's achievements. And they are achievements too: Swansea were nothing - almost a literally nothing club going nowhere. Martinez laid the blueprint down and, yes, others have faithfully followed it. Wigan: do you think there's many Wigan fans who'd, hand on heart, trade staying up for a season or two longer for the cup win Martinez engineered for them? I dont. That's like winning the European Cup for a club of that description...hold on, it'd actually feel like winning the European Cup for me if Everton won it, it's that long ago we've tasted success. The 5th place trophy? Who mentioned 5th place? 72 points out of Moyes' team was the football equivalent of plaiting sawdust. If you'd gotten Ancelotti or Mourinho in after Moyes left and asked them to get 72 points from that group of players they'd have told you to swing it. Martinez went in and had them playing straight off the bat. How anyone can be dismissive of that feat I have no idea. How soon we forget eh?

Errrm no they wouldn't mate and to think any of the players i have bolded would command a place in the best teams in the PL is absolute blue tinted glasses, and i am being generous not including Jagielka and McCarthy in that list as well

So you don't think the owners of Swansea who have set out and stuck by the way they have built the club had at least as much to do with what happened with Swansea then mate - it was all Martinez bringing his system to south Wales?

Actually mate i reckon there is hardly any Wigan fan who would trade premiership survival with the potential to always build and become a more established team in the division like others have done over a transitory feel good factor that lasted about 6 days for them. How exactly have they done since going down btw? It's like saying most Evertonians would trade one European cup win over staying in the premiership and plummeting down the divisions.

Haven't forgotten a thing about our 72 point season, including how when we had it in our own hands we absolutely choked spectacularly, a lot of the credit for that season has to be given to Moyes like it or not - we maintained a defensive discipline that season which has evaporated since, sadly even with a new manager we have maintained the ability to choke when the pressure is remotely on.

Start evaluating Martinez with balance mate, he isn't the Messiah, he is a above average for this league manager with some really strong points and some amazingly flawed ones as well