Roberto Martinez discussion

[toffeejack]

Have we moved on objectively in term of league standing from Moyes Prob not, have we moved on in terms of the clubs overall structure, I would say so.

He's made some absolutley gash signings though, we were spoilt with Moyes though.

who? alcaraz and mcgeady? At a combined weight of 500k. No manager ever has had a 100% hit rate with signings, so you can excuse a couple won't be great, when they're cheap risks, then it doesn't matter too much.

Kone people will argue has been bad, but i wouldn't go as far as saying gash, the team works better with him there, he just sh*ts himself around the penalty area. Everyone else has been a hit, i think mori will be as well.

 

[maccavennie]

to be fair, we won nothing under moyes and possibly won't win anything under martinez because of our board. I'd much rather watch us every week under martinez not winning anything, than under moyes.

I don't think its a case of the board have blocked Martinez's progress in any way, he's been backed as much as we've ever seen a manager being backed with transfers in my lifetime. As other clubs are starting to show, it's not just about the money it's about finding the right balance which is something we don't have on the field.

Totally understand though mate there's a lot of folk who are happy to see free flowing togger in parts of the games and the result becomes a little secondary. For me, an Everton win means a good weekend and I don't give a flying one how we get it as long as we do. If its done playing great togger then sound but if it comes from an o.g off a defenders arse in the 90th minute I will take that again.

 

[toffeejack]

I don't think its a case of the board have blocked Martinez's progress in any way, he's been backed as much as we've ever seen a manager being backed with transfers in my lifetime. As other clubs are starting to show, it's not just about the money it's about finding the right balance which is something we don't have on the field.

Totally understand though mate there's a lot of folk who are happy to see free flowing togger in parts of the games and the result becomes a little secondary. For me, an Everton win means a good weekend and I don't give a flying one how we get it as long as we do. If its done playing great togger then sound but if it comes from an o.g off a defenders arse in the 90th minute I will take that again.

totally agree with all that. i'd take a 1-0 dull win every day of the week over 4-3 losses. But the sad fact is the 1-0 wins won't be every week and thus we're not winning anything in the process, so it's all a tad pointless if we're looking at the big picture. Us finishing 4th was thoroughly enjoyable and was a minute achievement, but that's only because i've watched us for 20 years and seen us win nothing.

 

[maccavennie]

totally agree with all that. i'd take a 1-0 dull win every day of the week over 4-3 losses. But the sad fact is the 1-0 wins won't be every week and thus we're not winning anything in the process, so it's all a tad pointless if we're looking at the big picture. Us finishing 4th was thoroughly enjoyable and was a minute achievement, but that's only because i've watched us for 20 years and seen us win nothing.

I always say to anyone who will care to listen that our day will come again, don't know how and don't know when but it will. Might take another 20 years mate so hang on in there

 

[hullefc]

That's a fine post mate. Very thought provoking. I had no idea of the disparity in our defending home/away (and the general PL figures for home and away wins is staggering).

There must be one major reason for the difference. Goodison and the expectation that they'll screw up defending must be a factor of late, but doesn't explain a half season worth of conceding 19 goals at home. Maybe the away games the CM are more circumspect in getting up the pitch to support attacks and are giving adequate protection?

The different areas of the pitch -in the opposition half 26 % away from home and 30% at home. Yes we are defending a bit more away.

That's a fine post mate. Very thought provoking. I had no idea of the disparity in our defending home/away (and the general PL figures for home and away wins is staggering).

There must be one major reason for the difference. Goodison and the expectation that they'll screw up defending must be a factor of late, but doesn't explain a half season worth of conceding 19 goals at home. Maybe the away games the CM are more circumspect in getting up the pitch to support attacks and are giving adequate protection?

The game has become more counter attacking from the away team and not many teams fear playing the 'top' teams.

2015-16 Homes 38% aways 33% and draws 28%

2014-15 Home 45% aways 30% Draws 24%

2013-14 Homes 47% aways 32% Draws 21%

There is a tendency for both teams to score 46% 49% and 51% this year -hence the increased away wins and draws. All defences are shaky at the moment.

Yes there are other things at play but all Martinez needs to do IMO is play a 4-3-3 at home as he did against Chelsea. Even though we won with Naismith's 3 goals he did start with Besic - which I was pleased he played the extra player in the middle. No doubt he didn't want a repetition of the 6-3 defeat by them last season.

Working on set pieces as they have been will help. Playing Robles may help even. But it seems to me that we are suffering for the break down and getting caught out. The skill level of all teams in the premier league has got better with pace, incisive passing and movement and controlling the ball. Which makes it easier to become good at counter attacking.

Some may same that is a formation thing or not pushing so many forward when at home. Something I've noticed Arsenal doing, trying to keep more players back so as not to get caught on the counter. We could always use Wenger's 'tactical fouling' to stop the opposition launching counter attacks.

Playing 4-3-3 will not hinder our attacking play. But what I think is becoming clear at home is that we are conceding goals when our play breaks down. Another alternative is for the full backs not to bomb on. I've said many a time there is not much tweaking that needs to happened to get us up the table.

 

[Pacman]

Top 4 goalscorers in the league and their clubs positions:

Vardy & Mahrez- Leicester 2nd place

Lukaku- Everton 11th place

Kane- Spurs 4th place

And people think clubs in the top half would be willing to take Martinez on! He's no better than Rodgers in that he has good ideas but lacks the tactical nous to implement them. I would go as far as to say he's just as much as a charlatan, but in reality he doesn't talk up himself to be something he isn't, as we all knew his defensive liabilities and inability to organise a defence, yet Kenwright still took him on and now it's midtable.

I dred to think how poor we will be next year replacing Rom with a probable 1 in 3 striker.

 

[USABlue]

Top 4 goalscorers in the league and their clubs positions:

Vardy & Mahrez- Leicester 2nd place

Lukaku- Everton 11th place

Kane- Spurs 4th place

And people think clubs in the top half would be willing to take Martinez on! He's no better than Rodgers in that he has good ideas but lacks the tactical nous to implement them. I would go as far as to say he's just as much as a charlatan, but in reality he doesn't talk up himself to be something he isn't, as we all knew his defensive liabilities and inability to organise a defence, yet Kenwright still took him on and now it's midtable.

I dred to think how poor we will be next year replacing Rom with a probable 1 in 3 striker.

Except as you just illustrated Leicester have two of the top 4 goal scorers while Rom and Kane don't have another top goal scorer along side them. Spurs have a better defensive though. Bit too simplistic to look at one stat for one player and project league position

 

[toffeejack]

I always say to anyone who will care to listen that our day will come again, don't know how and don't know when but it will. Might take another 20 years mate so hang on in there

i'll have gone off us by then lol

we'll win a trophy the season after i die ha. could be worse, i could support someone like newcatsle and know damn well there's a high possibility i could go through my whole life and not see anything.

 

[Pacman]

Except as you just illustrated Leicester have two of the top 4 goal scorers while Rom and Kane don't have another top goal scorer along side them. Spurs have a better defensive though. Bit too simplistic to look at one stat for one player and project league position

Kone and Barkley have 11 between them, even taking individual goalscorers away we have scored only less than Leicester and Man City yet are still bottom half.

It's just criminal underachievement no matter how much people try dress it up/play it down. Our fans complain enough about the board/Elstones lack of ambition/success yet are happy to persist with the current manager and his defensive issues that he's proven over his time at here and at Wigan that he can't fix.

 

[USABlue]

Kone and Barkley have 11 between them, even taking individual goalscorers away we have scored only less than Leicester and Man City yet are still bottom half.

It's just criminal underachievement no matter how much people try dress it up/play it down. Our fans complain enough about the board/Elstones lack of ambition/success yet are happy to persist with the current manager and his defensive issues that he's proven over his time at here and at Wigan that he can't fix.

Think I'll wait for our first choice back line to play together before screaming that the sky is falling

 

[Pacman]

Think I'll wait for our first choice back line to play together before screaming that the sky is falling

I would bet my life that we'll be here again next season highlighting the same problems mate, likewise I would bet that Tony Pulis won't be playing tiki taka football next season either.

It's why I have respect for Dave in that he accepts Martinez for his faults as he likes the entertaining attacking football. But the fans that are happy to persist with him on the belief (or blind faith) that somehow he'll suddenly become defensively sound/well organised despite over 6 years of evidence saying otherwise bewilders me.

 

[USABlue]

I would bet my life that we'll be here again next season highlighting the same problems mate, likewise I would bet that Tony Pulis won't be playing tiki taka football next season either.

It's why I have respect for Dave in that he accepts Martinez for his faults as he likes the entertaining attacking football. But the fans that are happy to persist with him on the belief (or blind faith) that somehow he'll suddenly become defensively sound/well organised despite over 6 years of evidence saying otherwise bewilders me.

I don't think we'll become defensive stalwarts keeping clean sheets every week, however I do think we'll cut out some of the stupid mistakes such as pens and blowing leads which should make our attacking football enough.

 

[Huyton Layne]

Wigan truths as I keep hearing the same falsehoods about his valiant struggles to keep his team up

Paul Jewell 05-06
Spends 11m Sells 4m 7m net
Turns a newly promoted side to a mid table side with extra money from promotion. Finishes 10th

Paul Jewell 06-07
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Tries to rebuild side after 5 or 6 first teamers leave, finishes 17th

Chris Hutchins 07-Nov 07
Spends 12m Sells 12m 0 net
Loses 6 on the trot gets sacked in Nov

Steve Bruce Nov 07-08
Spends 5.5m Sells 1.7m 3.8m net
Bruce with some great bargains and a 5 mil striker keeps Wigan up finishing 14th

Steve Bruce 08-09
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Makes huge profit on his signing and selling Palacios in January. Finishes 11th

Roberto Martinez 09-10
Spends 13m Sells 18m -6m net
Huge profit made on two Bruce signings leave Wigan in 6 million profit as Bobby finished 16th in his first season

Roberto Martinez 10-11
Spends 10.5m Sells 2.3m 8.2m net
Spends a lot more than he sells, more than the season before's excess and romps to 16th

Roberto Martinez 11-12
Spends 8.5m Sells 7.75m 0.75m net
Loses one first team player, signs 3 new players to achieve his highest ever league finish of... 15th.

Roberto Martinez 12-13
Spends 7.3m Sells 9.2 -1.9m net
Sells Moses buys Kone. Gets relegated and wins a cup.

So between 09-13 his net spend was about 1 million and he took a team that finished 14th then 11th to the Chamionship.
In that same time period that clueless horror that is David Moyes had a net spend of about -18 million and kept his team between 6th and 8th.

 

[davek]

The different areas of the pitch -in the opposition half 26 % away from home and 30% at home. Yes we are defending a bit more away.


The game has become more counter attacking from the away team and not many teams fear playing the 'top' teams.

2015-16 Homes 38% aways 33% and draws 28%

2014-15 Home 45% aways 30% Draws 24%

2013-14 Homes 47% aways 32% Draws 21%

There is a tendency for both teams to score 46% 49% and 51% this year -hence the increased away wins and draws. All defences are shaky at the moment.

Yes there are other things at play but all Martinez needs to do IMO is play a 4-3-3 at home as he did against Chelsea. Even though we won with Naismith's 3 goals he did start with Besic - which I was pleased he played the extra player in the middle. No doubt he didn't want a repetition of the 6-3 defeat by them last season.

Working on set pieces as they have been will help. Playing Robles may help even. But it seems to me that we are suffering for the break down and getting caught out. The skill level of all teams in the premier league has got better with pace, incisive passing and movement and controlling the ball. Which makes it easier to become good at counter attacking.

Some may same that is a formation thing or not pushing so many forward when at home. Something I've noticed Arsenal doing, trying to keep more players back so as not to get caught on the counter. We could always use Wenger's 'tactical fouling' to stop the opposition launching counter attacks.

Playing 4-3-3 will not hinder our attacking play. But what I think is becoming clear at home is that we are conceding goals when our play breaks down. Another alternative is for the full backs not to bomb on. I've said many a time there is not much tweaking that needs to happened to get us up the table.

That's an amazing transformation in such a short time in terms of away success rate. It must chime in with the increases in revenue all are experiencing now. I mean, look at Stoke: a few years ago we'd have had to contend with Crouch and Kenwyne Jones, now they have Bojan, Arnautovic and Shaqiri.

On us in particular: I heard Roberto saying post Stoke game that these players cant help themselves going forward at any time during the game - that must be even more the case with 35,000 people screaming you on and you already have the lead. I think he has to move in those situations and make changes of a defensive nature: bring a forward off and get a defensive minded player on, and - as you imply - have Barkley slip back to make a 3 in midfield patrolling the back four (which doesn't stop us breaking out from that if the opposition break down high up the pitch).

I can appreciate maybe what is Martinez's thinking with these players: you dont want them going too often in negative patterns. But the late reversals from winning positions are going to have even more impact on confidence than that.

 

[4737carlin]

Top 4 goalscorers in the league and their clubs positions:

Vardy & Mahrez- Leicester 2nd place

Lukaku- Everton 11th place

Kane- Spurs 4th place

And people think clubs in the top half would be willing to take Martinez on! He's no better than Rodgers in that he has good ideas but lacks the tactical nous to implement them. I would go as far as to say he's just as much as a charlatan, but in reality he doesn't talk up himself to be something he isn't, as we all knew his defensive liabilities and inability to organise a defence, yet Kenwright still took him on and now it's midtable.

I dred to think how poor we will be next year replacing Rom with a probable 1 in 3 striker.

True this and your last line is the big worry for me, right now we really are what i would call a one man team, without him we are stuffed, to have a striker like him and not be a serious contender for Europe is terrible management. This year the Premier League is very competitive apart from Villa, next season after all the top managers have gone out and spent a fortune in the summer we are in serious danger of getting left behind.