Roberto Martinez discussion

[Bluesoulrebel]

Had we got some points on the board or any league form at all he wouldn't have had to resort to these cry baby tactics of blaming the officials to deflect his own failings.

Lock up for nothing? Get on with it......cry baby!!!!

 

[Prevenger17]

Does that rag know we're the Catholic club here? How dare they stab our manager in the back.

Don't listen to that guy, @davek will be on in a second to dismiss him as a complete hack.

You're actually so quick.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Squad is young. It makes bad decisions. We've had a completely unsettled back four and Tim Howard is crap.

Kids make mistakes, they turn off, they make the wrong choice. Those mistakes have been turning 3 pts into 1 pt for us this season.

They'll only learn not to make those mistakes by playing.

I see three paths forward for teams in this league.

1) Be Man City/Arsenal/Man Utd/Chelsea
2) Solidify with old heads and maybe a few young hopers, admitting that you're unlikely to ever break the hegemony but solidify yourself in the mid table.
3) Buy young, inexperienced raw talent. This results in frustrating inconsistency and flashes of brilliance, but also a lot of bad decisions.

Obviously we don't have the money/standing to be number 1. Number 2 is a safe option and can pay off, but I think barring some freak occurrence it has a low ceiling. In other words, here you are actively giving up on ever being the best to ensure that you are consistent and solid. We'll call this David Moyes. Number 3 is Martinez. It requires patience and time, and could definitely all go awry, but if you don't have money this is the best shot at cracking into that first tier. What happens when Del is 25 and makes the right decision 80% of the time? Or when Ross learns how and when to impose himself on a game? Or when John Stones cuts out the stupid mistakes in his game?

This team sparkles with potential, but I do not blame the manager for young players making bad decisions in the heat of high pressure situations. They are learning, they will improve, and Martinez's showing in the market has given me faith that we CAN lose one or two of our young studs and they will be replaced. The important thing is that we show improvement year on year. And while the results aren't there right now, we are in a much better place than this time last year. If we can improve by the same amount next season...well...we could be on the cusp of something special.

I for one don't think you pull the plug on that. It mortgages the possibly brilliant future for a slightly better, but still kinda meh present.

I don't think there is a manager out there today (that would come to us and is identifiable) that gives us a better chance to be GREAT. There are plenty that give us a better chance to be solid and finishing top 6 right now. But those managers tend not to have the vision or mentality to make us go past that. And I want more than top 6.

 

[zirc]

Looking at the sides chasing top four, they seem to have maybe a little more in the side? Teams above us like Palace have managed to grind out results, West Ham have done well away from home (much like us) but have managed to turn draws into three points. Stoke beat us at our place and have pulled off impressive results. Meanwhile, our biggest result this season came in a cup semi-final. Not a big deal if we manage to make it to Wembley (knock on wood) but maybe this is our level until someone in the team decides to show some mental toughness and see out those games in which we've dropped two points late on. With those points (seven from what I saw on Twitter), we'd be in 6th.

We're fragile, that's what sets us apart. Other teams force the opposition to labour for their goals, we just gift wrap them and crumble all too easily. I hope it's just the inexperience of youth. I fear it might not be.

 

[zirc]

Number 3 is Martinez. It requires patience and time, and could definitely all go awry, but if you don't have money this is the best shot at cracking into that first tier. What happens when Del is 25 and makes the right decision 80% of the time? Or when Ross learns how and when to impose himself on a game? Or when John Stones cuts out the stupid mistakes in his game?

We would all love that, and I think the vast majority of Evertonians would be willing to give Martinez a few seasons to develop all the young guns. The problem is teams with very talented young players who have poor seasons tend to get picked apart by rich clubs. Everyone's seen what has happened to Southampton in the last couple of years and is worried we'll suffer the same issue.

 

[Bluerover]

Squad is young. It makes bad decisions. We've had a completely unsettled back four and Tim Howard is crap.

Kids make mistakes, they turn off, they make the wrong choice. Those mistakes have been turning 3 pts into 1 pt for us this season.

They'll only learn not to make those mistakes by playing.

I see three paths forward for teams in this league.

1) Be Man City/Arsenal/Man Utd/Chelsea
2) Solidify with old heads and maybe a few young hopers, admitting that you're unlikely to ever break the hegemony but solidify yourself in the mid table.
3) Buy young, inexperienced raw talent. This results in frustrating inconsistency and flashes of brilliance, but also a lot of bad decisions.

Obviously we don't have the money/standing to be number 1. Number 2 is a safe option and can pay off, but I think barring some freak occurrence it has a low ceiling. In other words, here you are actively giving up on ever being the best to ensure that you are consistent and solid. We'll call this David Moyes. Number 3 is Martinez. It requires patience and time, and could definitely all go awry, but if you don't have money this is the best shot at cracking into that first tier. What happens when Del is 25 and makes the right decision 80% of the time? Or when Ross learns how and when to impose himself on a game? Or when John Stones cuts out the stupid mistakes in his game?

This team sparkles with potential, but I do not blame the manager for young players making bad decisions in the heat of high pressure situations. They are learning, they will improve, and Martinez's showing in the market has given me faith that we CAN lose one or two of our young studs and they will be replaced. The important thing is that we show improvement year on year. And while the results aren't there right now, we are in a much better place than this time last year. If we can improve by the same amount next season...well...we could be on the cusp of something special.

I for one don't think you pull the plug on that. It mortgages the possibly brilliant future for a slightly better, but still kinda meh present.

I don't think there is a manager out there today (that would come to us and is identifiable) that gives us a better chance to be GREAT. There are plenty that give us a better chance to be solid and finishing top 6 right now. But those managers tend not to have the vision or mentality to make us go past that. And I want more than top 6.

But the mistakes can be reduced through good coaching - RM stubbornly seems to ignore defensive coaching and he must realise that this will not get us to top 4/6. The evidence is there all season in the goals we are leaking which are cancelling out the excellent exciting attacking play.

 

[RaleighBlue]

We would all love that, and I think the vast majority of Evertonians would be willing to give Martinez a few seasons to develop all the young guns. The problem is teams with very talented young players who have poor seasons tend to get picked apart by rich clubs. Everyone's seen what has happened to Southampton in the last couple of years and is worried we'll suffer the same issue.

I don't think we will. The tv money is obscene. We saw it with John Stones. I don't see players being sold unless the offers are so insane that even Sheiks balk. Look at the Sterling situation with City £49 million for him?

I'll sell Rom for £60 million.

It's a different world. Contracts matter more now, simply because we should no longer need to sell to buy.

I'm not suggesting 3 will happen. Hell, Martinez could be at fault for the defense and we could be well doomed. I'm just being patient.

But the mistakes can be reduced through good coaching - RM stubbornly seems to ignore defensive coaching and he must realise that this will not get us to top 4/6. The evidence is there all season in the goals we are leaking which are cancelling out the excellent exciting attacking play.

We said this about Rom being crap all last season - he would be better with a good coach, he's not worth £28 million, he's lazy, etc.

Young players take time to develop,

 

[Dexter]

Only just read his interview. Laughable.

“Do we need to be more ruthless?

“No. We won the game against Chelsea, it’s as simple as that."

And this fella isn't delusional?

He's totally lost it now and only a real good signing this window is going to save his bacon, if he settles for another kid i predict a worse end to the season than the first half.

 

[Bluerover]

I don't think we will. The tv money is obscene. We saw it with John Stones. I don't see players being sold unless the offers are so insane that even Sheiks balk. Look at the Sterling situation with City £49 million for him?

I'll sell Rom for £60 million.

It's a different world. Contracts matter more now, simply because we should no longer need to sell to buy.

I'm not suggesting 3 will happen. Hell, Martinez could be at fault for the defense and we could be well doomed. I'm just being patient.


We said this about Rom being crap all last season - he would be better with a good coach, he's not worth £28 million, he's lazy, etc.

Young players take time to develop,

But Rom is ....an attacker. The attack is much improved but its the defence needs attention

 

[USABlue]

But Rom is ....an attacker. The attack is much improved but its the defence needs attention

That's his point...a young player Rom has greatly improved on last season. ..our young defenders could do the same

 

[zirc]

I don't think we will. The tv money is obscene. We saw it with John Stones. I don't see players being sold unless the offers are so insane that even Sheiks balk. Look at the Sterling situation with City £49 million for him?

I'll sell Rom for £60 million.

It's a different world. Contracts matter more now, simply because we should no longer need to sell to buy.

I'm not suggesting 3 will happen. Hell, Martinez could be at fault for the defense and we could be well doomed. I'm just being patient.


We said this about Rom being crap all last season - he would be better with a good coach, he's not worth £28 million, he's lazy, etc.

Young players take time to develop,

Speak for yourself mate, I never doubted Lukaku's class even when he was having a torrid time last season. He's just too good to not become world class.

We don't have to sell but the players can always refuse to sign new contracts, unfortunately.

 

[RaleighBlue]

But Rom is ....an attacker. The attack is much improved but its the defence needs attention

...This is my point.

He was crap last year. He's better this year...after development. Let's give time to see development rather than just say that our defense...with Jags, Baines, and Coleman injured for good chunks of the season, leaving Brendan Galloway (19), John Stones (21), Ramiro Funes Mori (24 - and just from Argentina) to marshal our defense with a keeper that has decided he's going to be the oppositions top goalscorer.

I'm just advising some patience.

I have 3 major concerns about Martinez:
1) Tim Howard - the fact that he's still starting makes me seriously worry about Martinez and why he's doing this. Is he afraid of Howard's dressing room presence? Does he really believe it's just a ridiculous series of coincidences? Does he have THAT little faith in Robles?
2) Muscle injuries - these pop up a huge amount, and if his training methods are at fault, then a lot of my reasoning for giving him time falls apart (unsettled defense - regularly getting hit by injuries will just make this status quo).
3) I'm just wrong - And the defense is entirely his issue. We know he doesn't like wingers to track back...which is a bit frightening when we're playing poorly. And I'm not blind to the possibility that this won't get better.

However, I still feel like the potential outweighs his negatives. To me, 11th vs 8th is meaningless. Both mean we're just a team making up the numbers. The prize money is pretty useless at this point even...tv deal is plenty...and finishing 11th with 4-3 thrillers means we're more likely to actually be on tv to make up some of the prize money difference than being 8th and dour.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Speak for yourself mate, I never doubted Lukaku's class even when he was having a torrid time last season. He's just too good to not become world class.

We don't have to sell but the players can always refuse to sign new contracts, unfortunately.

Oh, I didn't either. I just remember last season.

And the contract thing is a worry - once they've run them down. And if we don't think we can make the jump in that time frame, we can sell them. But we have the money to tell Stones 'naw' when Chelsea offer £40 million AND he put in a request. If we think Rom is the difference between top 4 and top 10 one season...I suspect we won't be selling him that season.

 

[Dexter]

I said our play was universally recognised and applauded. You poured scorn on it. I stated that pros and other club's supporters recognise our style of play and merit it. Now you shift the ground onto defensive frailties alone.

You're changing the rules of engagement in this discussion to suit yourself.

Just on that defensive issue though (and the press highlighting it and you quoting it), why, for purposes of balance. dont they underline the two games against City and the game against Spurs as (very recent) examples of defensively solid displays? The fact that they dont might give you some understanding of why I dont give a flying one about what some gutter dwelling hack says about Everton, our players and manager, and our season's contours.

You can't rip someone for going on about the defence when alls you do is go on abput the attack, please.

I'll agree with you that Martinez is sorting things only if we concede less than 5 goals in the next 5 games, coz only that would show improvement, if we concede 5 or more we really are not improving anything.

 

[davek]

You can't rip someone for going on about the defence when alls you do is go on abput the attack, please.

I'll agree with you that Martinez is sorting things only if we concede less than 5 goals in the next 5 games, coz only that would show improvement, if we concede 5 or more we really are not improving anything.

I dont care how many we concede as long as we win them.