Roberto Martinez discussion

[Ihaters]

It's got less to do with money and more to do with coaching ability and vision. In any case, relatively speaking, are Everton any higher up the PL fee/wages table than we were when Moyes was here? All other clubs have spent and we're probably still about 10th or so in spending, so no advantage is to be had there.

6th or 11th: I couldn't give a monkeys. It's the difference between a nothing achievement and a less than nothing one.

I reckon if Moyes was given the chance to spend 28m on a player, instead of having to sell several players for that sort money to progress the team, I think he may of done better than he did.. which even before that is better than Martinez has us doing currently.

We are going to pick up points and he may win every game from here till RM retires... but so far criticism is deserved because he has taken us backwards, and anyone who thinks 11th is the same as 6th needs to consider Everton's need for money to compete amongst other things.

£875,000 per game shown + 8.75m standard... The higher we finish and better we are against bigger teams and the more we push for Europe... the more games we get and they are worth nearly a mil each

£1,236,083 the money per place x 5 for the previous 11th/6th comparison... £6,180,415 x 2. That's over Moyes entire budget over the ten years he was here. lose that two years in a row like we are on course for currently and we miss out on the chance of buying another decent player. But I guess you find say Osman preferable to a 12m replacement?

Personally I'd like Everton to have the extra 12m, the extra games, the better players, the chance for Europe and the sheer pleasure of winning games.

Seems to me you may as well just watch the cup games and save yourself the boredom of the following the pointless league you don't care about.

Amuses me how there is no difference between 5th and 11th places... but those points Martinez got in his first season meant everything.

 

[Ihaters]

What pressure? He's got a job for as long as he wants it whilst turning in below par performances.

Only thing he's got against him is a few posters on here daring to question the direction he's taking us. I'm sure he's pretty comfortable with that amount of pressure.

And some like me that like the direction, but still think he should be doing better at a few basic things that would make a big difference.

 

[Bluesoulrebel]

So would I

Me too!!!

 

[Stanley Parker]

Martinez certainly got off to a good start. How do you compare his first season with Moyes' best season?

Just look at the goals for and against and think who understood defence and attack better.

And, yes, I do know that Martinez inherited Moyes' defence, but he remodelled it extensively. He also inherited Moyes midfield and attack.

Moyes 2004/05
4 Everton 38 18 7 13 For 45 Against 46 Goal difference −1 61

Martinez 2013/14
5 Everton 38 21 9 8 For 61 Against 39 Goal difference +22 72

 

[RaleighBlue]

I reckon if Moyes was given the chance to spend 28m on a player, instead of having to sell several players for that sort money to progress the team, I think he may of done better than he did.. which even before that is better than Martinez has us doing currently.

He didn't at United.

And his record with expensive buys is questionable. No doubt he knew a bargain, but I feel he would never have risked £28 million on Lukaku. If Lukaku would even be willing to come play under Moyes.

Points are nice. League positions are nice. But tv money is much greater than prize money. So much greater that the prize money isn't nearly as important. I just think that some people have unreasonable expectations - we should have progressed past Moyes without any hiccups, and when those hiccups have shown up it's the manager's fault, not simply a natural reaction to a total change behind the scenes of the football club.

Perhaps you don't feel we needed a total change, but I think that we would be in bad shape today if Moyes had stayed...more money and more expectations and more teams with money means bargains are a lot less common, and the standard of the not loaded teams has improved(West Ham, Stoke, Leicester are all better than at any point in Moyes' tenure).

 

[dannyboy]

And some like me that like the direction, but still think he should be doing better at a few basic things that would make a big difference.

I like us winning games and climbing the table, until we start doing that on a regular basis again I'm not going to be convinced.

Sunday would be a good start.

 

[dannyboy]

Martinez certainly got off to a good start. How do you compare his first season with Moyes' best season?

Just look at the goals for and against and think who understood defence and attack better.

And, yes, I do know that Martinez inherited Moyes' defence, but he remodelled it extensively. He also inherited Moyes midfield and attack.

Moyes 2004/05
4 Everton 38 18 7 13 For 45 Against 46 Goal difference −1 61

Martinez 2013/14
5 Everton 38 21 9 8 For 61 Against 39 Goal difference +22 72

Why make such ridiculous comparisons? The 04/05 team had finished 17th the year before and had absolutely no business being anywhere near the top 4.

We all know Martinez had a fantastic first season. The question is now rightly being asked whether this was down to the ground work Moyes had put in prior to his arrival.

 

[Aar_the_Toffees]

The manager believes we should be the best team in the league- he gets NSNO. This is why we must back him. He truly thinks that we can match the oil-barron teams. He's built a team capable of beating any other in the world. The results aren't the best, but positive signs are showing.

 

[Klinker]

I totally get your points. I worry about them myself as well. However, I disagree. That's because I believe that sometimes you have to step back to step forward.

Yes, obviously we all want to win more than we are. But Moyes and Martinez are very different managers, with very different outlooks, and require very different things. Martinez's first season was a crazy outlier of luck to me. He believes that we need verve and flare and youth to actually break into that top 4. (Maybe he's wrong, I'll address that later). Moyes believed in solidifying and building from the back...

Moyes was wrong. Or we would have broken into the top 4. We didn't, and we weren't going to. Martinez has had to implement his entire structure in the past few years, and it is almost the polar opposite of what was in the club for the decade before him. That was extremely unlikely to go perfectly smoothly, and it hasn't. That said, we show improvements from last season in our style and form. We are no longer just wishing for draws as we were last January, but being aggrieved by dropped points at Stamford Bridge.

So what's happening is a complete shift in the makeup of Everton. A shift HAD to occur, as the old ways were proven unsuccessful. Martinez's ideas may be wrong, and we should begin to find that out over the next season or two, but I believe due to the nature of the game, the nature of his ideas, and the man that he replaced we need to be patient during what is fundamentally a rebuilding. It would have been amazing if it was unnecessary, but our vaunted defense left by Moyes was falling apart - Distin fell off a cliff, Howard has as well, Baines is struggling with injuries, and Coleman was never our most solid defender. Obviously Moyes' attack was dire, and we can all agree that has been improved on.

It remains to be seen if Martinez is the right man, but I do think cutting the cord now is simply admitting that our goals are to finish between 5th and 10th for eternity. I want more than that. I want 1st...to do that we need to change who we've been, which may (and has) resulted in (hopefully) temporary regression.

I agree. This is still a bad combination of a young team (who are performing very well for their age, but they do make mistakes) and a team aging in key positions. What is a fact is we are scoring goals at an incredible rate. If you look at the league scoring lots of goals is difficult and we do it regularly. In this team I think with a few small tweaks we can turn this defense around.

 

[Spocks-a-Blue]

Has Roberto come out and said we lost the City game yet?
By his logic we clearly lost. A pen that should have been and a lot of poor play and desperate defending.

I agree with you that if he is going to complain about the non-call then he should have been man enough to say that the non-call at City could have been given or something like that as Hiddink sportingly did after this match. However, I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say the situations were identical. In the City match, the ref clearly saw it and decided not to give it. Most here agree it was a stonewall as do I but it wasn't a blown call. Furthermore, if he had given it they could have missed. At the worst, they make and we lose and we're down a point. The Terry incident was a completely blown call, not a judgment call. They get that right and we're two pints better off even with the "loss" at City. Does any of that make sense? Anyway, I do wish he hadn't popped. Cheers to you good sir!

 

[Khalekan]

I agree with you that if he is going to complain about the non-call then he should have been man enough to say that the non-call at City could have been given or something like that as Hiddink sportingly did after this match. However, I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say the situations were identical. In the City match, the ref clearly saw it and decided not to give it. Most here agree it was a stonewall as do I but it wasn't a blown call. Furthermore, if he had given it they could have missed. At the worst, they make and we lose and we're down a point. The Terry incident was a completely blown call, not a judgment call. They get that right and we're two pints better off even with the "loss" at City. Does any of that make sense? Anyway, I do wish he hadn't popped. Cheers to you good sir!

Also, City might have missed the penalty so it isn't like an actual legitimate goal was ruled out or, as in Saturday's case, a clearly illegitimate goal allowed to stand, ergo the result of the match was unquestionably altered.

I know what Bobby said was bobbins but you know what.....I am glad Everton's manager is calling these officials out the way Ferguson, Wenger and Jose have been doing for years.

We know the more whinging the manager does and the more publicity the bad calls receive makes officials in future games think a bit harder before giving close decisions against such a manager.

For far too long EFC has been the nice guy of English football.

 

[Spocks-a-Blue]

We know the more whinging the manager does and the more publicity the bad calls receive makes officials in future games think a bit harder before giving close decisions against such a manager.

For far too long EFC has been the nice guy of English football.

A fair point very well made but a part of why I was so drawn to this great club was because we didn't typically resort to that sort of thing. Unfortunately, I think that you are correct and that he's going to have to be more vocal. If he does however, I just think he shouldn't evade instances as at City where we were perhaps a wee bit fortunate. Cheers!

 

[Jags..class]

The city pen wasn't 100%, sterling was already running the ball out. I've seen them given and seen them not given. We have had about 5 penalty shouts and not been given.

 

[Zatara]

Next league games:

Swansea H 3pts
Newcastle H 3pts
Stoke A 1pt
West Brom H 3pts
Liverpool A 1pt
Villa A 3pts
West Ham H 3pts
Sunderland A 3pts

8 games i think 20pts. Do that and we are back in the mix.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Next league games:

Swansea H 3pts
Newcastle H 3pts
Stoke A 1pt
West Brom H 3pts
Liverpool A 1pt
Villa A 3pts
West Ham H 3pts
Sunderland A 3pts

8 games i think 20pts. Do that and we are back in the mix.

Tough games though plus we've been here before with this 'we played well in the big games so we're going to win the easy ones' line of thinking. I hope we do get near that tally but having taken 22 games to get 29 points I can't exactly see us picking up another 20 in 8 games. I hope we do though as it would put us somewhere close to where we should be.