Roberto Martinez discussion

[SpurtingLesbian]

The Cult

The Plotters

The Fence Sitters

 

[BlueToff]

I don't consider that watching the ball fly into our own net time and time again good football. Or 60+ minutes of side ways passes. Or Howard doing break-dancing moves on his own line.

Neither do I.

But I said look at some of the goals we've scored... we also haven't been doing 60 minutes of sideways passing. Last season, yes, this season we've been a lot more direct - even at home.

 

[BlueToff]

And last season.

In fact in his famous first season it felt like he didn't have the same obsession with dominating possession

He doesn't have that obsession now though??

You really don't seem to understand, that against West Brom, Swansea etc. we were always going to dominate possession as we were desperately trying to get the goals to get back into the game.

In a lot of games this season we've either just edged the possession or had less of it.

Again, you're using criticisms that just aren't that valid any more.

Like the whole 'he can't defend' thing.

1 goal conceded in the last 5 kind of shoves that back in people's faces, as it's obvious he's actively looked to make us more solid.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

He doesn't have that obsession now though??
You really don't seem to understand, that against West Brom, Swansea etc. we were always going to dominate possession as we were desperately trying to get the goals to get back into the game.
In a lot of games this season we've either just edged the possession or had less of it.
Again, you're using criticisms that just aren't that valid any more.
Like the whole 'he can't defend' thing.
1 goal conceded in the last 5 kind of shoves that back in people's faces, as it's obvious he's actively looked to make us more solid.

the main problem we have nowadays is that when Teams come to Goodison they park the bus and try to hit us on the counter. When they try to play football, we beat them.
Away it's not a problem as the opposition try to play more so we can tear them a new one, but at home most teams revert to a Pulis-style bunker mentality which we struggle to break down. What some people see as 'possession football', sideways passing' and 'fannying around at the back' in these games is us trying to draw them out to create a bit of space. Rom works best on the counter where he can use his pace not in a packed box, he's not that type of striker.
This is why we struggle at home. It's plain to see, Geri banging balls into the box is a bit hit and hope because Rom's usually got some Gorilla centreback trying to get his shirt off him. Some times it does work but most of the time we've got to try to pass our way through or get to second balls first in there and again we struggle.
The answer might even be to let the opposition have the ball a bit more so they come out of their area a bit, but this of course has risks.

 

[BlueToff]

the main problem we have nowadays is that when Teams come to Goodison they park the bus and try to hit us on the counter. When they try to play football, we beat them.
Away it's not a problem as the opposition try to play more so we can tear them a new one, but at home most teams revert to a Pulis-style bunker mentality which we struggle to break down. What some people see as 'possession football', sideways passing' and 'fannying around at the back' in these games is us trying to draw them out to create a bit of space. Rom works best on the counter where he can use his pace not in a packed box, he's not that type of striker.
This is why we struggle at home. It's plain to see, Geri banging balls into the box is a bit hit and hope because Rom's usually got some Gorilla centreback trying to get his shirt off him. Some times it does work but most of the time we've got to try to pass our way through or get to second balls first in there and again we struggle.
The answer might even be to let the opposition have the ball a bit more so they come out of their area a bit, but this of course has risks.

Spot on mate.

Counter-attacking football is, really, the best way of scoring goals. Always has been and always will be. Just look at Barca last night...

Now, Martinez knows this, but it's extremely hard to counter a team like West Brom when they barely left their 18 yards box. If they had been brave enough to (like they did against Reading in the cup) we'd have got behind them and caused havoc.

Against Swansea we obviously tried to soak up some pressure and let them come at us in the hope of doing them on the counter. Ultimately that mistake from Stones/Howard (mainly Howard) cost us and we panicked. Got the leveller and then should have kicked on, but instead they ripped us apart on a counter.

This is what I mean when I say some of the performances at home really haven't been poor.

It's not possession for possessions sake as it was at times last year. It's simply, as you said, trying to create that little bit of space to get through.

We did it perfectly against Newcastle. Got the goal and then sat back and let them get a bit of a grip on the game, then simply hit them on the counter. It took until the two late penalties to get our rewards for that, but the gameplan and execution of it on that day was perfect.

What we obviously need to cut out is this horrible knack of conceding stupid goals at home. But again, RM can't really be held accountable for McCarthy and Lukaku not following Rondon when that's what they had been assigned to do, or Howard thinking Ayew was the football etc.

 

[willo30]

the main problem we have nowadays is that when Teams come to Goodison they park the bus and try to hit us on the counter. When they try to play football, we beat them.
Away it's not a problem as the opposition try to play more so we can tear them a new one, but at home most teams revert to a Pulis-style bunker mentality which we struggle to break down. What some people see as 'possession football', sideways passing' and 'fannying around at the back' in these games is us trying to draw them out to create a bit of space. Rom works best on the counter where he can use his pace not in a packed box, he's not that type of striker.
This is why we struggle at home. It's plain to see, Geri banging balls into the box is a bit hit and hope because Rom's usually got some Gorilla centreback trying to get his shirt off him. Some times it does work but most of the time we've got to try to pass our way through or get to second balls first in there and again we struggle.
The answer might even be to let the opposition have the ball a bit more so they come out of their area a bit, but this of course has risks.

But this has been going on since the Palace game near the end of his first season and nothing is changing. He still hasn't tried to work it out.
My issue is his insistence that the same formation that works so well away will work at home. 2 defensive midfielders against the lesser teams, 1 striker, teams are turning up not to get beat and are nicking a win. They are finding it too easy to defend against.
You are bang on with your 2 quotes above so if we play with 2 strikers or only 1 defensive midfielder we could then give them a little more encouragement to come out and turn it into a football match. Also having an extra creative player on the pitch whilst they have parked the bus wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Zatara]

But this has been going on since the Palace game near the end of his first season and nothing is changing. He still hasn't tried to work it out.
My issue is his insistence that the same formation that works so well away will work at home. 2 defensive midfielders against the lesser teams, 1 striker, teams are turning up not to get beat and are nicking a win. They are finding it too easy to defend against.
You are bang on with your 2 quotes above so if we play with 2 strikers or only 1 defensive midfielder we could then give them a little more encouragement to come out and turn it into a football match. Also having an extra creative player on the pitch whilst they have parked the bus wouldn't hurt either.

Its not the formation, it's the lack of options.

There has been no alternatives to Lukaku and no playmaker...sign those two types in the summer and Martinez can vary the attack.

 

[davids]

I don't think new owners would come in and make massive changes right off the get go. It's all a waiting game, I personally do see Martinez being sacked until after next season if it's poor.

I know it's only anecdotal,but having worked for a couple of American owned companies where it is all about the results RM's record is not that of a winner, and that will see him sacked.........unless he can win the Cup and get a run of win's that sees us get a top six finish.

 

[willo30]

Its not the formation, it's the lack of options.

There has been no alternatives to Lukaku and no playmaker...sign those two types in the summer and Martinez can vary the attack.

So we couldn't start with one of Mirallas or Del instead of one of Barry or McCarthy against WBA for example? There are options there now but he chooses to use them too late. Start with the more attacking option then shore up near the end when leading.

 

[BlueToff]

But this has been going on since the Palace game near the end of his first season and nothing is changing. He still hasn't tried to work it out.
My issue is his insistence that the same formation that works so well away will work at home. 2 defensive midfielders against the lesser teams, 1 striker, teams are turning up not to get beat and are nicking a win. They are finding it too easy to defend against.
You are bang on with your 2 quotes above so if we play with 2 strikers or only 1 defensive midfielder we could then give them a little more encouragement to come out and turn it into a football match. Also having an extra creative player on the pitch whilst they have parked the bus wouldn't hurt either.

Of course he has been trying...

Just because he hasn't made the changes the fans want doesn't mean he hasn't tried.

We've had some success at breaking down teams this year when Lukaku has had support (namely Kone). That's one example of him 'trying'

 

[Titus Bramble]

What happened to the '"I'll give him until christmas crowd" It's February nearly March and at the same league position as last season, how many of them actually said enough is enough?

I personally think our performances are 100x better than last season. Last season I was coming away from games thinking we were awful and couldn't see where our results were going to come from, this season I've come away from plenty of games thinking how on earth did we not win there?

Our results are (slightly) better than last year and for a few minor tweaks/individual errors etc they'd be much better. I feel like we're close to getting it right and there is plenty about our team to get excited about. That's why I'm giving him longer now.

 

[willo30]

Of course he has been trying...

Just because he hasn't made the changes the fans want doesn't mean he hasn't tried.

We've had some success at breaking down teams this year when Lukaku has had support (namely Kone). That's one example of him 'trying'

But he's not changing the formation, just the players. Kone plays it's instead of Lennon, Mirallas or Del. We still play out from the back with 2 DM's. The great managers such as Hughes, Pulis and Pardew have already worked us out before they get here. The new Swansea bloke worked us out in his first game. We are just too predictable and nothing seems to be changing. We've got 16 points from 14 games at home this season, last season we got 28 from 19 and we thought that was bad.
He has his convictions that this is how he wants to play but it either doesn't work in this league or he doesn't have the right players for it to work. If this is the case he should either change it or play to the strengths of the players we have now until he gets the right players. Watching some of our older players trying to do this passing stuff is painful at times.

 

[toffeeblue9]

But this has been going on since the Palace game near the end of his first season and nothing is changing. He still hasn't tried to work it out.
My issue is his insistence that the same formation that works so well away will work at home. 2 defensive midfielders against the lesser teams, 1 striker, teams are turning up not to get beat and are nicking a win. They are finding it too easy to defend against.
You are bang on with your 2 quotes above so if we play with 2 strikers or only 1 defensive midfielder we could then give them a little more encouragement to come out and turn it into a football match. Also having an extra creative player on the pitch whilst they have parked the bus wouldn't hurt either.

Just on this, little bit of a bug bear of mine that Martinez has this used as an argument against him.

Just because McCarthy starts a game doesn't always necessarily mean that we play with two defensive midfielders - the shape varies with him either playing alongside Barry or more advanced alongside Barkley in a 433 with Barry sitting.

We've actually played a 433 rather than a 4231 on a number of occasions this season (and we did last season too).

Liverpool at home, Palace at home, Norwich away, Leicester at home, Newcastle away, Stoke at home and the first half of Spurs at home.

One win, 3 draws and two defeats in those games. There may have been others as well, but those 6 and a half were most definitely not the two defensive midfielder set-ups. Truthfully, I think the formation thing is a red herring - there's no discernible improvement in the results when we vary the shape.

 

[BlueToff]

But what formation change would make the difference?

Hughes had far from worked us out - or we wouldn't have bagged three against them.

Pardew similar - we created loads that night and didn't take our chances - just like against WBA. Got nothing to do with the formation as the players are still creating chances playing in that system. They just haven't finished them off.

Nobody is happy with our home record, but the system isn't entirely to blame when we've created so much in some of the games we've lost.

 

[toffeeblue9]

But he's not changing the formation, just the players. Kone plays it's instead of Lennon, Mirallas or Del. We still play out from the back with 2 DM's. The great managers such as Hughes, Pulis and Pardew have already worked us out before they get here. The new Swansea bloke worked us out in his first game. We are just too predictable and nothing seems to be changing. We've got 16 points from 14 games at home this season, last season we got 28 from 19 and we thought that was bad.
He has his convictions that this is how he wants to play but it either doesn't work in this league or he doesn't have the right players for it to work. If this is the case he should either change it or play to the strengths of the players we have now until he gets the right players. Watching some of our older players trying to do this passing stuff is painful at times.

Sorry, but that's plain wrong. Of the three managers you mentioned there, we didn't play with two defensive midfielders in two of those games