Roberto Martinez discussion

[whiteshadow]

If the players know the fans are itching to get on their case at the first sign of anything going wrong it's going to put more pressure on them. People perform worse when they feel other people are expecting them to fail. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. The fans need to start believing in the players ability and the players need to start believing the fans believe in them. That'll give us the best chance of getting positive results.

I don't think the fans are to blame for most of the results, that'd be stupid but to think the negativity of the fans at home doesn't affect the players on the pitch is just as stupid. They might be rich but that doesn't mean they're not people, if someone had loads of people expecting them to make a mess of a task at work they'd probably mess it up even if they were capable of doing it under normal conditions.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

The difference being as you said is he had to sell. Bobby doesn't need to but yet COULD still lose a couple.

Fair point.

 

[Ihaters]

Football is a game of ifs and buts mate...

I'm basing that on the fact that teams - on the whole - have taken their chances at Goodison when they've had them.

We - in a lot of the games we haven't won - haven't.

Teams don't usually come to Goodison and create loads and be wasteful...

Disagree, we have rode our luck plenty this season

 

[bluewally]

They cant do it every week. They can do it once every so often: winning ugly or whatever the divvies say.

Performance > results.

Stand on me on that lad.

With the part in bold you could be describing Everton over the past 2 seasons

 

[BlueToff]

I'd have to disagree with that. Yes we've been wasteful in games, and there have been some games where we've had an overwhelming amount of efforts without scoring, but to suggest the same hasn't happened the other way round is really pushing it.

It's not rare for teams to Goodison and have 10+ shots, which is one of the main reasons we concede so many. If you allow teams to get into decent areas and shoot as much as we do then you'll pay for it eventually.

Palace had about 5 efforts mate. Same with West Brom, same with Villa, same with Newcastle.

Only teams I can recall really having a go at us were Stoke, City, Utd, Leicester and Spurs.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the defence, but I think the fact remains that we take more of the chances we create at home we win more games, and the system we play hasn't seen us struggle to create those chances.

I do agree with the point that he needs to be able to be more flexible when he makes subs and chnaging the system if chasing a game - but I don't see a problem in starting with a 4-2-3-1.

 

[davek]

Wouldn't blame the fans to be honest - but the pressure from the crowd - as much as it can be a benefit - can, at times, be a detriment.

Is still down to the players on the pitch as well obviously.

The players cannot fail to be affected. As the game wears on they get hounded out of their rhythm and lose composure.

That may all be true, but I suppose the question is as a club how do we overcome it?

You win games like we did in the first season and then that pacifies a crowd. If you remember though, in that first season, there was a lot of early draws and there was murmuring of unrest even as early as the early Autumn of 2013. So basically, the ultimate answer to your question about how we overcome this is to change the culture of the fan watching: to get their appreciation of a different way of playing to the semi-agricultural stuff served up in the recent past. I said from day one when Martinez arrived that his biggest task would be overcoming that route one mentality that Goodison had of late been weaned on.

It's a shame our best players won't see it that way when they jump ship to teams that can get results and performances, setting us back another few years

Yes, it's happened a lot that lately hasn't it?
They buy into Martinez. Unless one has an unbelievable Euros and the fee goes up to £50M+ they wont be leaving.

Oh great. It's the fans fault now. Where will this ever end.
If you think any of the prima donnas earning thousands a week give a crap what the hard working supporters shout at them in a game then you have really lost it. The fans are entitled to voice their opinion if what they are seeing is no good. As long as it's not personal or racist then this is no excuse at all.

The fans aren't customers they're supporters. They're entitled to frig off if they dont like it.

 

[Ihaters]

I don't care what formation he plays to be honest, its only a small part of the defensive problem. Its entirely about going for the ball when we don't have it.. We simply don't do it.

We also don't track opponents when they attack.. why?

So many games we have been countered against by maybe 2 players, one will run and run and run at us as we back off and back off and back off.. then he'll cross to the other player who despite us having 6 players back and fairly near him, will have plenty of time and space to get the ball, put it on the deck and return the pass or get a shot away. Its utterly ridiculous. And its every game.

 

[willo30]

The fans aren't customers they're supporters. They're entitled to frig off if they dont like it.

They are also entitled to demand better if they are not happy with what's being served up. It's not cheap to follow your team nowadays and takes a lot of loyalty. To just say they can frig off if not happy is a little disrespectful. I don't go any more as I was priced out of it a few years ago but still know a few who do and what they sacrifice at times just to follow Everton every week has to be respected.

 

[Ihaters]

The players cannot fail to be affected. As the game wears on they get hounded out of their rhythm and lose composure.



You win games like we did in the first season and then that pacifies a crowd. If you remember though, in that first season, there was a lot of early draws and there was murmuring of unrest even as early as the early Autumn of 2013. So basically, the ultimate answer to your question about how we overcome this is to change the culture of the fan watching: to get their appreciation of a different way of playing to the semi-agricultural stuff served up in the recent past. I said from day one when Martinez arrived that his biggest task would be overcoming that route one mentality that Goodison had of late been weaned on.



Yes, it's happened a lot that lately hasn't it?
They buy into Martinez. Unless one has an unbelievable Euros and the fee goes up to £50M+ they wont be leaving.



The fans aren't customers they're supporters. They're entitled to frig off if they dont like it.

Ah of course, we are 11th because of the fans being grumpy..
...Alternatively of course, the fans are grumpy because we are 11th. Vicious circle..

Of course the team itself counter your argument regularly.. scoring when the crowd are restless, conceding when they are singing but its a good excuse blaming the fans instead of the players/manager.. May be worth blaming something that isn't a fan..

Let me help..

* Maybe the sun was in their eyes
* Barkley, Jagielka and co are not used to English climate and will take time to adapt
* The opposition were all on performance enhancing drugs
* The pitch was mostly uphill
* Space dust got in their eyes and made them hallucinate a herd of invisible elephants
* Howard was largely pants..

All good excuses except one...

The last one of course, that would be on a player and therefore a bad reflection on Martinez so you can't use that.

 

[davek]

They are also entitled to demand better if they are not happy with what's being served up. It's not cheap to follow your team nowadays and takes a lot of loyalty. To just say they can frig off if not happy is a little disrespectful. I don't go any more as I was priced out of it a few years ago but still know a few who do and what they sacrifice at times just to follow Everton every week has to be respected.

There's people who say they wont renew a season ticket and go anymore. Full respect to them for doing exactly that. They'd rather see a more direct style of football and they wont return until we play the ball long again. If that's their call then great. They're not a drag on the team at least. Dont know how many have done that loike. Not many I suspect.

 

[davids]

I don't care what formation he plays to be honest, its only a small part of the defensive problem. Its entirely about going for the ball when we don't have it.. We simply don't do it.

We also don't track opponents when they attack.. why?

So many games we have been countered against by maybe 2 players, one will run and run and run at us as we back off and back off and back off.. then he'll cross to the other player who despite us having 6 players back and fairly near him, will have plenty of time and space to get the ball, put it on the deck and return the pass or get a shot away. Its utterly ridiculous. And its every game.

Rom has read the Fellaini coaching manual on tracking back,can't for the life of me work out why he bothers to expend the minimal energy required to trot the ten yards only to stop and put hands on hips.Wish he wouldn't bother at all to be honest.

 

[chicoazul]

Still the same circular argument with various nuances and no one changing their mind.

And an Everton manager that's not going anywhere for at least a few months.

 

[davek]

Ah of course, we are 11th because of the fans being grumpy..
...Alternatively of course, the fans are grumpy because we are 11th. Vicious circle..

Of course the team itself counter your argument regularly.. scoring when the crowd are restless, conceding when they are singing but its a good excuse blaming the fans instead of the players/manager.. May be worth blaming something that isn't a fan..

Let me help..

* Maybe the sun was in their eyes
* Barkley, Jagielka and co are not used to English climate and will take time to adapt
* The opposition were all on performance enhancing drugs
* The pitch was mostly uphill
* Space dust got in their eyes and made them hallucinate a herd of invisible elephants
* Howard was largely pants..

All good excuses except one...

The last one of course, that would be on a player and therefore a bad reflection on Martinez so you can't use that.

No, it's not the fans per se. The away supporters are magnificent. And look at how they've been rewarded: 9 wins in all competitions and two losses. Chalk and cheese. It;s a very legitimate question to ask why there's such a massive discrepancy between home and away form and to bring in the issue of supporter reaction....I mean, it's not like it's not been talked of as an issue this season is it?

 

[Lanolin]

Palace had about 5 efforts mate. Same with West Brom, same with Villa, same with Newcastle.

Only teams I can recall really having a go at us were Stoke, City, Utd, Leicester and Spurs.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the defence, but I think the fact remains that we take more of the chances we create at home we win more games, and the system we play hasn't seen us struggle to create those chances.

I do agree with the point that he needs to be able to be more flexible when he makes subs and chnaging the system if chasing a game - but I don't see a problem in starting with a 4-2-3-1.

So the 'only' teams you can remember you can remember having a go are 5 of the 13 teams we've played? And that isn't including Watford and Chelsea, who both had more shots than we did in the games against them, or Sunderland, who could easily have scored 6 themselves on another day, or Palace (who actually had 14 shots rather than 5). Interesting. Completely wrong, but interesting.

 

[willo30]

There's people who say they wont renew a season ticket and go anymore. Full respect to them for doing exactly that. They'd rather see a more direct style of football and they wont return until we play the ball long again. If that's their call then great. They're not a drag on the team at least. Dont know how many have done that loike. Not many I suspect.

I'm actually lost as to your argument now.

Is it EVERTON you are championing or is it TEAM DAVEK?
Everything you seem to post now is to try and back up your arguments. YOUR arguments, not any of the seemingly obvious problems that the likes of @BlueToff can also see. You are so one dimensional in your opinions that it must be team davek all the way for you.