Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lanolin]

2015 CLOSE SEASON SPENDING

We are spending more than we have before but other than the Lukaku transfer we're not spending the kind of money that the clubs we aim to compete with are and the mid table clubs and even some lower midtable clubs will be spending more than us due to their lower wages and the increase in TV money.

We're spending more money than we have before but if all the other teams have more money and the teams in mid table are going to spend more it's not really valid, we're not a rich club and to compete with teams that are we need to gamble on young players with a lot of potential because we can't afford to go out and buy the finished article on the same level the rich clubs can.

Mori, Lennon, Deulofeu, Holgate, Leandro, Henen and Cleverley for £13.95m? Je ne pense pas.

 

[whiteshadow]

Mori, Lennon, Deulofeu, Holgate, Leandro, Henen and Cleverley for £13.95m? Je ne pense pas.

I think the Mori transfer was reported as less at first, if I remember right. Accounting for that we're still not spending big, except for the Lukaku transfer.

 

[Lanolin]

I think the Mori transfer was reported as less at first, if I remember right. Accounting for that we're still not spending big, except for the Lukaku transfer.

By my reckoning Roberto has spent around £100m in 2 and a half years. That's quite a lot by most teams standards. Obviously it's nowhere near the real big hitters, but it certainly stands comparison with the Leicesters, Stokes, Southamptons, Palaces and West Hams of the world.

 

[Saint Domingo]

2015 CLOSE SEASON SPENDING

We are spending more than we have before but other than the Lukaku transfer we're not spending the kind of money that the clubs we aim to compete with are and the mid table clubs and even some lower midtable clubs will be spending more than us due to their lower wages and the increase in TV money.

We're spending more money than we have before but if all the other teams have more money and the teams in mid table are going to spend more it's not really valid, we're not a rich club and to compete with teams that are we need to gamble on young players with a lot of potential because we can't afford to go out and buy the finished article on the same level the rich clubs can.

That table doesn't reflect league position at all though. What's the argument here?

 

[whiteshadow]

By my reckoning Roberto has spent around £100m in 2 and a half years. That's quite a lot by most teams standards. Obviously it's nowhere near the real big hitters, but it certainly stands comparison with the Leicesters, Stokes, Southamptons, Palaces and West Hams of the world.

Yeah, it does stand comparison and I imagine our wage bill is fairly large considering. I think we should be doing a better than we are but I think the margins are so fine in the league atm and our team is still improving.

I'm not convinced wether RM will get us to where we should be, despite how I prob come across in some of my posts. I just think if he can get the balance right and keep the squad together I think we could do something special. 50\50 wether he's good enough to or not but I think next season we'll find out beyond any doubt wether he's worth sticking with or not.

Whatever happens with the ownership of the club might drastically change what happens with regards to him one way or the other I guess anyway but I hope he gets to show wether he's good enough or not next season. I know some people are convinced he's not up to it and I do actually see where they're coming from just I also see some really good things he does. I guess the question is, is he learning from his mistakes and will he learn quick enough in future?

 

[whiteshadow]

That table doesn't reflect league position at all though. What's the argument here?

It was in response to this.

We are spending plenty, finances are far better than they were previously because of Sky. No reason we have to go down the buy young, train up and sell route if we don't have to.

Not saying its a solution, just think the youth excuse is both a poor one and one that is actually detrimental to Martinez as an argument.

 

[Saint Domingo]

It was in response to this.

He's got a point though. Martinez is managing an elite premier league team that expects to be in Europe. When he's handed a decent transfer budget if he wants to spend that on inconsistent young players that's up to him. Why should this be used as an excuse for poor performance? As an aside I don't buy this 'inexperienced' excuse because Barkley and Lukaku have been some of our most consistent players this season as was Galloway when he was in the side. Defensive errors have been structural ones not helped by a terrible keeper (bizarrely selected for his 'experience'). So, like most of the excuses that get handed about, there's no logic to back it up.

 

[whiteshadow]

He's got a point though. Martinez is managing an elite premier league team that expects to be in Europe. When he's handed a decent transfer budget if he wants to spend that on inconsistent young players that's up to him. Why should this be used as an excuse for poor performance? As an aside I don't buy this 'inexperienced' excuse because Barkley and Lukaku have been some of our most consistent players this season as was Galloway when he was in the side. Defensive errors have been structural ones not helped by a terrible keeper (bizarrely selected for his 'experience'). So, like most of the excuses that get handed about, there's no logic to back it up.

He said we're spending plenty and that we shouldn't have to rely on youngsters to compete. My point was that we don't spend enough to realistically be challenging for the top 4, which is RM's aim so we have to gamble on some young players with loads of potential that we wouldn't be able to afford if we were buying them as the finished article.

I agree we should be doing a bit better than we are but we've got a young team that is more prone to make mistakes because RM is trying to keep them together long enough to break the top 4.

Stones, for all his qualities on the ball and being a great tackler doesn't always mark well, or defend well in the air. Barkley despite his brilliance on the ball often gifts the ball away due to bad judgement calls and has been caught out defending badly from corners a couple of times. We often get hit on the break when the players like Barkley, Dela gift the opposition the ball often needlessly because they're more prone to making bad decisions despite their skill.

We're 5 points off Europe and he's had a 'decent' amount of money to spend, not loads, a decent amount, so he's not really that far off where he should be. He just needs to tighten up the defensive side of the team.

 

[Yankfootball1]

We are spending plenty, finances are far better than they were previously because of Sky. No reason we have to go down the buy young, train up and sell route if we don't have to.

Not saying its a solution, just think the youth excuse is both a poor one and one that is actually detrimental to Martinez as an argument.

In general I agree that finances are not as poor as they were. But the increase is funding is linear - EVERYONE has more money. So in relative terms we are still in the same boat financially until changes in ownership occur. We don't have to SELL players to make ends meet now - But any player we BUY Everton are competing against clubs in the PL that have more cash to spend than Everton does. We have to pay that inflated price. I would argue we are still in the same boat on our purchases (buying youth/foreign with real potential) as we aren't going to spunk 50 million on someone like Martial and a mid-career player of genuine quality with PL experience I think Everton is not going to find as good value. I think our purchases are going to likely come from a foreign league, Lower league, and academy; all where risk is involved. Unless a player is available on a free like Clev, but that doesn't happen often ( a good player available on free )

 

[Ihaters]

In general I agree that finances are not as poor as they were. But the increase is funding is linear - EVERYONE has more money. So in relative terms we are still in the same boat financially until changes in ownership occur. We don't have to SELL players to make ends meet now - But any player we BUY Everton are competing against clubs in the PL that have more cash to spend than Everton does. We have to pay that inflated price. I would argue we are still in the same boat on our purchases (buying youth/foreign with real potential) as we aren't going to spunk 50 million on someone like Martial and a mid-career player of genuine quality with PL experience I think Everton is not going to find as good value. I think our purchases are going to likely come from a foreign league, Lower league, and academy; all where risk is involved. Unless a player is available on a free like Clev, but that doesn't happen often ( a good player available on free )

There are well over 100 players out there in the world, why do we have to go for ones other Premier league clubs are going for?

There are probably only about 20 clubs richer than Everton in Europe, not many out there could spend nearly 30m on a player, its a quiet secret but Everton actually have money. We don't have to sell to buy, we don't have to have cast offs.. we can actually compete in the transfer market these days.

We have enough money that we can buy genuine quality.. We bought a player for 28m

Just saying that if people complain that the youngsters are making Martinez life difficult by being understandably inconsistent.. Why didn't Martinez understand how inconsistent they would be, and get less of them?

Also as mentioned.. some of the youngsters have been our more consistent players this season so its a non argument really, just don't think its a valid excuse for Martinez having us sitting 11th, because its something he could of avoided fairly simply if he wanted to.

 

[Saint Domingo]

In general I agree that finances are not as poor as they were. But the increase is funding is linear - EVERYONE has more money. So in relative terms we are still in the same boat financially until changes in ownership occur. We don't have to SELL players to make ends meet now - But any player we BUY Everton are competing against clubs in the PL that have more cash to spend than Everton does. We have to pay that inflated price. I would argue we are still in the same boat on our purchases (buying youth/foreign with real potential) as we aren't going to spunk 50 million on someone like Martial and a mid-career player of genuine quality with PL experience I think Everton is not going to find as good value. I think our purchases are going to likely come from a foreign league, Lower league, and academy; all where risk is involved. Unless a player is available on a free like Clev, but that doesn't happen often ( a good player available on free )

Look at the league table then look at that spending table from the summer window. Apart from City's position the rest does not match up at all. When Leicester and Spurs both spend less than us but make the top 4 then this 'we're doing as well as we should be based on spending' does not add up.

If the financial argument is true (teams finish where their finding dictates). Then the only logical implication is that managers like Ranieri Pochettino even Moyes are very good (for out performing their financial league position) whereas Martinez is average. Finances are a great argument for absolving managers of poor performance but when you take it to its logical conclusion you are saying that you could have any qualified coach in charge and we'd still come in the same position roughly.

Of course finances as a whole are important but in this case they don't excuse the manager from gross underperformance over the last 20 months.

 

[Ihaters]

He said we're spending plenty and that we shouldn't have to rely on youngsters to compete. .

Almost... you said you thought young players were letting him down by being inconsistent and inexperienced etc..
I was saying if they were the problem, it would not be a valid excuse for absolving Martinez of blame, he didn't have to bring them in if he didn't want to, as we could afford decent quality regardless of age.

I still don't think they are particularly inconsistent, and I think building a team around Barkley, Lukaku, Stones, Besic, McCarthy, Mori, Deulofeu is a great idea, I just want us to close the ball down and I reckon we are instantly transformed into a decent team.

But if he fills the team with youth, and the youth are letting him down, its not an argument for Martinez, but the other way round imo.

 

[Ihaters]

Look at the league table then look at that spending table from the summer window. Apart from City's position the rest does not match up at all. When Leicester and Spurs both spend less than us but make the top 4 then this 'we're doing as well as we should be based on spending' does not add up.

If the financial argument is true (teams finish where their finding dictates). Then the only logical implication is that managers like Ranieri Pochettino even Moyes are very good (for out performing their financial league position) whereas Martinez is average. Finances are a great argument for absolving managers of poor performance but when you take it to its logical conclusion you are saying that you could have any qualified coach in charge and we'd still come in the same position roughly.

Of course finances as a whole are important but in this case they don't excuse the manager from gross underperformance over the last 20 months.

Until Martinez sorts his defence this is a pretty accurate summation of the managers mentioned imo.

 

[Yankfootball1]

There are well over 100 players out there in the world, why do we have to go for ones other Premier league clubs are going for?

There are probably only about 20 clubs richer than Everton in Europe, not many out there could spend nearly 30m on a player, its a quiet secret but Everton actually have money. We don't have to sell to buy, we don't have to have cast offs.. we can actually compete in the transfer market these days.

We have enough money that we can buy genuine quality.. We bought a player for 28m

Just saying that if people complain that the youngsters are making Martinez life difficult by being understandably inconsistent.. Why didn't Martinez understand how inconsistent they would be, and get less of them?

Also as mentioned.. some of the youngsters have been our more consistent players this season so its a non argument really, just don't think its a valid excuse for Martinez having us sitting 11th, because its something he could of avoided fairly simply if he wanted to.

I am not saying it is "THE" reason we are 11th, nor am I happy with that place in the table. I am just saying it is a contributing factor. A small example could be, Barkley doesn't play deeper because he isn't consistent enough defensively to provide the cover, even though a lot of us (opinion I know ) think his long term position is similar to a Lampard. So for now he plays in a position that doesn't require some of that skill set as he hopefully develops it. His defensive consistency might prevent us from playing the exact way Martinez envisions long tem. But we play him because he is SO good the additions to the side outweigh the negatives. (I understand this is all my opinion). To me an argument could be made this impacts our consistency because we struggled when McCarthy/Besic were out of the side because Barkley can't play as well alongside a DM yet, but maybe that is the role Martinez envisions. I would argue the investment in Ross (or a similar player is worth it) even though his consistency impacts how we might play, and indirect impact then maybe how he specifically distributed the ball from the AM position in a particular game.

As far as going for similar players as other teams sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. There is always gong to be some overlap. Who else went for Mori, Besic, and the lad from Switzerland. But they are young and risky - and value purchases - maybe not Mori. If we had spent 15 million on Scott Dann would we be better off long term - Probabaly not. Maybe short term but not long.

I think Lukaku, as is always referenced when it comes to making the point about spending money, is going to be a once in a blue moon purchase - It is not going to be our norm under this ownership. The timing was perfect. We knew what were getting based upon his loan season, he had a bad relationship with Mourhino,and a good relationship with Martinez. Yet a number of people at the time were saying it was too much and last season were slating him. It was a 28 million calculated risk with significant potential of upside. Not a 15 Million outlay for a quality but little to no resale potential player like a Dann.

 

[whiteshadow]

Almost... you said you thought young players were letting him down by being inconsistent and inexperienced etc..
I was saying if they were the problem, it would not be a valid excuse for absolving Martinez of blame, he didn't have to bring them in if he didn't want to, as we could afford decent quality regardless of age.

I still don't think they are particularly inconsistent, and I think building a team around Barkley, Lukaku, Stones, Besic, McCarthy, Mori, Deulofeu is a great idea, I just want us to close the ball down and I reckon we are instantly transformed into a decent team.

But if he fills the team with youth, and the youth are letting him down, its not an argument for Martinez, but the other way round imo.

I don't think the youth is the only issue and considering their ages they're all doing really well but I think it plays a part. I do think he needs to take risks on some young players to try getting us in to the top 4 though. I do agree that the way he's setting the team up is one of the main issues but I do also think some of it has been the players.

I think he knows what most fans think of what he's doing and where they think he's getting it wrong. It's down to him now to prove that he can do it. Is the glass half full or half empty? If he can solve the defensive side we'll start doing some real damage to teams, if he can't we'll end up continually mid table until he leaves, which will happen if that plays out imo. I think it's worth being patient though.