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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Saint Domingo said:
Look at the league table then look at that spending table from the summer window. Apart from City's position the rest does not match up at all. When Leicester and Spurs both spend less than us but make the top 4 then this 'we're doing as well as we should be based on spending' does not add up.

If the financial argument is true (teams finish where their finding dictates). Then the only logical implication is that managers like Ranieri Pochettino even Moyes are very good (for out performing their financial league position) whereas Martinez is average. Finances are a great argument for absolving managers of poor performance but when you take it to its logical conclusion you are saying that you could have any qualified coach in charge and we'd still come in the same position roughly.

Of course finances as a whole are important but in this case they don't excuse the manager from gross underperformance over the last 20 months.
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Never said they did - from a finance perspective I was simply responding to the thought that we could go and buy any quality player with premier league experience we wanted because there is more money. That he chooses to build through a core of young players that allow for growth and potential sell on value if we do lose them is still important from an Everton business model perspective. Our purchasing power within the league has remained static or fallen because teams like Bournemouth, Palace have attracted additional investment to go along with the additional sky money.

Martinez has made mistakes no doubt. Last year we underperformed in the league, no argument. We are currently not where any of us would like to be this year but I have definitely seen improvement from last. To me that means he is learning. We have had one good cup run and in the running for another. I look at last year as a learning year for him. I think he was learning how to manage in Europe - (first Time), he was learning how to manage the bulk of his players coming back from a world cup (first time - Wigan were crap) I think it is fair to say we all might cock-up a job when experiencing two pretty material challenges in the same year. One that impacts your preparation for the year and the other that impacts your management of resources in the year. Yes the blame falls to Martinez (and to the players as well) but I am not going to sack a guy that doesn't nail every challenge the first time he experiences it. The biggest justifiable criticism I have is sticking with Howardas long as he did. Do managers generally cut goalies more slack because they see a goalie is always judged by the fans on number of goals conceded, probably, when they might see 3-4 errors on film leading up to it that impacted the result).

I don't pay much attention to his wording in press conferences TBH - both in slating players by name (how'd that work for Mourhino) or using certain words consistently. I know that if I spoke a second language I would probably sound like a melt as well to a native speaker by constantly using the same words I was comfortable with.
 
whiteshadow said:
I don't think the youth is the only issue and considering their ages they're all doing really well but I think it plays a part. I do think he needs to take risks on some young players to try getting us in to the top 4 though. I do agree that the way he's setting the team up is one of the main issues but I do also think some of it has been the players.

I think he knows what most fans think of what he's doing and where they think he's getting it wrong. It's down to him now to prove that he can do it. Is the glass half full or half empty? If he can solve the defensive side we'll start doing some real damage to teams, if he can't we'll end up continually mid table until he leaves, which will happen if that plays out imo. I think it's worth being patient though.
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Completely agree.. I'm in no rush to see him out either, just the youth thing has been starting to grate a little of late and seems to be an increasingly used argument, 'fraid you took the brunt of my annoyance.

Its an argument imo that just doesn't add up. We give the man money to buy players, then say its not his fault we are doing badly, its the players he bought not performing.. When you combine that with only having 100m to spend over 3 years not being enough to buy senior players it doesn't quite add up.

I feel I should apologise though as I took only that one part of your post, the rest of which I agreed with and this is just a personal bugbear coming out ;)

I am liking the early signs of a mini revolution at the back, but we still need to close down the ball to improve imo, hopefully we will get there, I've never seen a team look more scared of an opponent running towards them than this Everton team, but I'm with you, I think he can do it. But as for the glass half full or empty, after a poor game i'm lately feeling like the glass is definitely half empty.. with a crack in it.. and leaking.. and only had water in it in the first place and that was stale, after a win, I just fill relieved..
I think its maybe just been a long 2.5 years, my patience is good, but its not limitless. Fortunately we have Lukaku to cheer us up and of course the potential that comes with the young players..
 
whiteshadow said:
2015 CLOSE SEASON SPENDING

3345200.jpg
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Just a quick note... We spent 13.5m on one of our top 5 most expensive ever signings I think since then so not entirely up to date :)
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/everton-fc/transfers/verein/29
 

daz4matty said:
Ha ha lets not try to win any trophies or to get into europe lets just turn up enjoy ourselves and go the pub after.
Wow what a supporter
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Who said anything about not trying to win trophys? We certainly didn't need any Brasso when Moyes was around....the trophy room was like the Marie Celeste.
Having been going to Goodison on an ST for over 30-odd years I'd consider myself a reasonable supporter. ....no better or no worse than any other. Insulting fellow blues is the lowest of the low. Suggest you refrain from doing that as it's not in the spirit of the forum. Simpler still, stop reading or responding to my posts. Problem solved.
 
Playing devil’s advocate here - Is it just possible that we are badly overrating these players?

If we break it down:-

Deulofeu – Didn’t exactly set the world alight at Sevilla
Cleverley – Man Utd cast off
Lennon – Tottenham cast off
Barry – Man City cast off
McCarthy – Relegated with Wigan
Robles – Relegated with Wigan

The rest, apart from Lukaku, we paid virtually buttons for. Maybe they’re not the bargains we think they are. If you take the £28m striker out of the picture, then we would be in a relegation battle. Is that not indicative of the quality that Martinez is buying in? Maybe it’s not the tactics, but just the quality we have now. Are we overrating these players? If it was any other team, would we be surprised at them being 11th. After all, three of the starting eleven are cast offs, two got relegated, and one couldn’t cut it in Spain.

Also, still playing devil’s advocate, do we really have strength in depth? For example – Let’s say McCarthy and Barry are the two starting midfielders. Barry gets injured, so we put in Besic. Besic gets injured, so we put in Cleverley. Cleverley gets injured, so we put in Gibson. The point I am making is that our 5th choice midfielder in that position isn’t much worse than the first choice. It’s the same at left back – Oviedo gets injured, put in Baines. He gets injured, put in Galloway. On the right – Lennon gets injured, put in Deulofeu, he gets injured, put in Mirallas. Does that say strength in depth, or lack of quality in the first eleven?

Is Martinez as good in the transfer market as we all think he is? The players he has bought in appear to be ‘doing well’, but are they really? At the end of the day, we are 11th. We were 11th last season. We are not beating teams we think we should beat. We are not consistent. We make mistakes. These are his players. Are our hearts ruling our heads here? And we think that they are all much better than they really are? That somehow we got all of these bargains?

Don’t get me wrong – I rate every one of the players I’ve listed – But for us to qualify for the Champions League, in any season, with so many ‘bargains’, is a big ask .

It is also a concern that, at thirty-five, Gareth Barry is consistently one of our best players. Why is that? Why, with all this talent allegedly at our disposal, is Gareth Barry still one of our best players? Is he in the form of his life? Or is he just surrounded by ‘okay’ players?

So to sum up – If Martinez is taking us backwards, is it not so much the tactics, and more because of the quality of player he is bringing in?

Just food for thought really.
 
evertony said:
Who said anything about not trying to win trophys? We certainly didn't need any Brasso when Moyes was around....the trophy room was like the Marie Celeste.
Having been going to Goodison on an ST for over 30-odd years I'd consider myself a reasonable supporter. ....no better or no worse than any other. Insulting fellow blues is the lowest of the low. Suggest you refrain from doing that as it's not in the spirit of the forum. Simpler still, stop reading or responding to my posts. Problem solved.
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I am not insulting you don't be so sensitive.
You were knocking coming 4th under moyes yet celebrating coming 5th under coco which i found very strange.
For a supporter of a football team i find that odd.
But feel free to ignore me because i don't get you at all.
The whole idea is to try to win things or get into europe thats why we follow our clubs
 
daz4matty said:
I am not insulting you don't be so sensitive.
You were knocking coming 4th under moyes yet celebrating coming 5th under coco which i found very strange.
For a supporter of a football team i find that odd.
But feel free to ignore me because i don't get you at all.
The whole idea is to try to win things or get into europe thats why we follow our clubs
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I wasn't knocking coming 4th....I was trying to understand why you constantly post negatively where Everton are concerned and why you felt there was a huge difference between finishing 4th and getting into Europe for one two-legged game on the back of dull, workmanlike football and finishing 5th with some of the best football we've seen for many a season. Seems that that 180 minutes really made an impression. I went to both legs, enjoyed the experience, but am enjoying the direction we're heading in right now.
I'd say your tone was insulting....perhaps it's just the way you refer to Evertonians.

Anyhow, we should all be celebrating today.
 

bluewally said:
You enjoy going down? :D
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No way this team is going down. Gary Linekar was spot on in his comments this week.

Moshiri doesn't think so either and he's put his money where his mouth is. He knows there's a very exciting young squad being built with a manager that believes in progressive football. He's spent £175,000,000 on his belief.....the doubters have spent hours of their dull existence on a keyboard chatting tosh.

Just sayin like ;)
 

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