Roberto Martinez discussion

[chazzle_dazzle]

fair point well made.

IMO, again as I've stated many times, we're in a position with a third of the season left when it could still go either way and so he can't be judged on this season until then.

Last season was poor but his first season was class and if we take one into account then it's only fair we take the other into account as well - especially as we have shown real signs of being as good if not better at times this season than we were in our first.

Like is say - the cup runs are irrelevant unless we win them. If we get knocked out in the semis or come runner up that isn't a barometer for success for Martinez.

My opinion with Martinez is based on this season, first season as great and i said it might be first season syndrome, second season was [Poor language removed] and i thought it was a fluke so i would rate him on this season. This season has been poor, we might come out of it with a trophy which will gloss over it or we could finish 6th or we might finish 15th and it would be a absolute mess.

We have been better for a few weeks, but despite certain posters assertion that Martinez dropped Howard down to form - i feel he has lucked out a little bit with this. He seen the light form last season when he put Howard straight into the team.

there is still plenty to play for, but at the moment in my opinion - the first season was more likely the fluke.

 

[BlueToff]

I'll quite happily take the first into account as it shows the trajectory he has put us on.

I don't agree that we are anywhere near as good as we were in his first season.

At times this season our play has been breathtaking - at least up there with some of the stuff from his first season.

I cite: Chelsea home, Sotton away, (the fourth goal) vs Villa home, (1st half) Norwich away.

That's four examples, in my mind, of where we have matched some of the play that we showed in his debut season.

 

[BlueToff]

Like is say - the cup runs are irrelevant unless we win them. If we get knocked out in the semis or come runner up that isn't a barometer for success for Martinez.

My opinion with Martinez is based on this season, first season as great and i said it might be first season syndrome, second season was [Poor language removed] and i thought it was a fluke so i would rate him on this season. This season has been poor, we might come out of it with a trophy which will gloss over it, we might finish 15th and it would be a absolute mess.

We have been better for a few weeks, but despite certain posters assertion that Martinez dropped Howard down to form - i feel he has lucked out a little bit with this. He seen the light form last season when he put Howard straight into the team.

there is still plenty to play for, but at the moment in my opinion - the first season was more likely the fluke.

And again, we could just as easily finish 6th...

By all means, judge this season when it's over (or basically over), but 12 games left is a long time.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

And again, we could just as easily finish 6th...

By all means, judge this season when it's over (or basically over), but 12 games left is a long time.

Yeah sorry for balance, ill add that in.

 

[whiteshadow]

The archetypal 'jam tomorrow' post. A mid-table indifference post, judging by that last sentence.

So anyone who shows any signs of being patient because we're not cash rich when he's trying to build a team that can play attractive football and compete with the rich clubs is settling for mid table, even when we're only 6 points off 5th?

In the next 2\3 weeks we could be in 5th or 6th but rather than wait and see you'd just sack the manager?

Martinez has had two full seasons (And best part of a third) , so have the majority of these young players (Barkley, Stones & Lukaku) - and the inconsistency is still very apparent. People harp on about leicester not being able to keep their form going, but at least they've put a consistent run together for months on end...And with their squad?!.

Leicester are breaking all the rules left right and centre. Ranieri is doing an amazing job with that team and some of their players are proving they're better than people thought they were. Still, what they're doing has happened how often in the premier league? If you're going to sack RM cos he's not doing as well as they are you better sack every other manager in the league while you're at it.

Only 4 teams in the premier league are showing any kind of consistent form and three of those are mega rich teams. Looking at the rest of the league we've been beaten less than any other team and have scored more goals than any other team outside the top 4, including Man Utd, who have spent over £200m recently.

We're 6 points off 5th place with plenty of games to go. Maybe if the fans started supporting the team better at home games instead of putting the players under even more pressure we might find we're in an even better position.

When was the last time we won three on the bounce in the league? It's really not that hard to do in this so-called 'more competitive than ever' league. To not manage that for as long as martinez has (Since April 2014 - so nearly two full seasons) is totally unacceptable.

What bothers me is where we finish in the table and the position the squad is in to improve on that over the coming seasons. We're currently 6 points off 5th. We've had some bad luck in some games this season. If we'd had a bit more luck and were in 5th hardly anyone would be complaining. RM ain't perfect and deserves some stick for not sorting the defence and being slow to react and chatting rubbish in press conferences etc but I think people wanting to sack him are jumping the gun. We're not going down, we are showing signs of improving, he is 'slowly' starting to address the issues we've all seen for ages and we are close to the European spots as well as doing well in both cups.

He might not sort the defence out, what if he does though? It's a lot easier and cheaper to sort a defence than it is to get a team scoring goals which he already has. I don't think we've got anything to lose by sticking with him for a bit longer to see if he can.

 

[BlueToff]

Yeah sorry for balance, ill add that in.

No worries mate.

See I've got absolutely no issue with people's opinions in terms of they are just that.

What my main point would be is that realistically he isn't going anywhere and that isn't changing for the rest of this season at least.

We've got a long time left and yes, while we could finish 15th and it be a right mess, we could easily manage a top six finish.

In the balance now and I think we've shown enough improvements since the turn of the year (in the league) to be able to get that consistency.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

This season has been poor, we might come out of it with a trophy which will gloss over it, we might finish 15th and it would be a absolute mess.

Agreed. We really ought to have been in a position by now where we had a relative comfort zone for a decent end to the season. As it is, it's up in the air, and we've got it to do; rather than having done (Most of) it.

While it could end up going reasonably well, it could as easily go wrong, such is our inconsistency.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

No worries mate.

See I've got absolutely no issue with people's opinions in terms of they are just that.

What my main point would be is that realistically he isn't going anywhere and that isn't changing for the rest of this season at least.

We've got a long time left and yes, while we could finish 15th and it be a right mess, we could easily manage a top six finish.

In the balance now and I think we've shown enough improvements since the turn of the year (in the league) to be able to get that consistency.

Everyone has an opinion on here and they have a right to air them, within reason. The one thing that does my head in is when there is no balance to people argument and they are so blind to one side or the other.

He isn't going anywhere before the end of the season, and the end of the season will be when my mind is 100% made up on whether i think he is a good enough manager to take our club forward. Like i say i feel he lucked into some consistency since Howard got "injured", my interest in that now is if he has learned from last season and putting Howard back in - because he strikes me as a stubborn man.

 

[willo30]

So anyone who shows any signs of being patient because we're not cash rich when he's trying to build a team that can play attractive football and compete with the rich clubs is settling for mid table, even when we're only 6 points off 5th?

In the next 2\3 weeks we could be in 5th or 6th but rather than wait and see you'd just sack the manager?

A few weeks back we were in 12th 5 points off 7th. 3 games later we had picked up 6 points but only moved up to 11th. 6 points is a big gap when there are so many teams in between. At our season average it would take us over 4 games to claw back 6 points whilst all the others would have to lose all. It's not as easy as just saying we could be 5th or 6th in 2 games, too many other things would need to fall into place for that to happen.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

So anyone who shows any signs of being patient because we're not cash rich when he's trying to build a team that can play attractive football and compete with the rich clubs is settling for mid table, even when we're only 6 points off 5th?

Are leicester cash rich? Have they got stones barkley & lukaku? OK I'll stop with leicester. West ham? Southampton? Oh, we're only 5pts behind them, sure....

People are alright going on about utd & chelsea's inconsistency but that makes their argument weaker because we haven't taken advantage of that fact. Forget goals scored, etc....we're 11th. That's what matters....Not how many points off 'x' position - that means zilch.

In the next 2\3 weeks we could be in 5th or 6th but rather than wait and see you'd just sack the manager?

As I said above - means diddly. In the next 2/3 weeks we could as easily be 14/15th. And where have I once said I want martinez given the tin-tack? Although if he doesn't win the derby as a bare minimum, then I'll be reviewing that...

 

[whiteshadow]

A few weeks back we were in 12th 5 points off 7th. 3 games later we had picked up 6 points but only moved up to 11th. 6 points is a big gap when there are so many teams in between. At our season average it would take us over 4 games to claw back 6 points whilst all the others would have to lose all. It's not as easy as just saying we could be 5th or 6th in 2 games, too many other things would need to fall into place for that to happen.

That's a fair point, it's still more than doable 'if' we can put a run together though.

 

[Ihaters]

That's a fair point, it's still more than doable 'if' we can put a run together though.

Yep, this needs to not be a false dawn.
If its the early stages of a change in form and the start of us putting a run together, then we could hit European spots come the end of the season...

I am struggling to believe it though, I am trying, but we seem like such a weak team under Martinez. That we score goals has replaced winning games as the bar to reach, and that is great for roughly 50% of a football game.. sadly there are opponents we need to stop from doing the same to us.

Current mini revival suggests we still have that knowledge buried in there somewhere, and combined with those lucky incidents we have escaped from, we are keeping some clean sheets at last, and may actually be starting to learn the second art of football..

Until we do though, we are just bottom half canon fodder

 

[Lanolin]

I've made the point before, but the argument that we need to wait til the end of season before giving opinions is just ridiculous. It's a forum, it's open now, people will post on the performances up to this point.

Anybody who says we might finish 6th is quite correct. There's little evidence to suggest it's likely, but it's certainly possible. Similarly, me might finish 16th. Again, unlikely but possible. What I know for a fact though, is that we are currently 11th. I also know that I believe that to be unacceptable, and that even if we put a good run together and finish 6th, I will still feel that the performances and results up to this point have been below par.

If you got in a taxi after the game and asked the driver to take you into town but he started heading down Queens Drive, would you call him on it, or would you just sit there and wait til you arrived in Aigburth, because you wanted to give him a chance? To me, we're heading in the wrong direction, and I will point that out. It may be that he knows what he's doing and we'll get there in the end, but my current feeling is that he's lost.

 

[whiteshadow]

Are leicester cash rich? Have they got stones barkley & lukaku? OK I'll stop with leicester. West ham? Southampton? Oh, we're only 5pts behind them, sure....

I said only 4 teams, 3 of those being mega rich are showing any kind of form, the Foxes were the other team.

5 points isn't that much and there's still a lot of games to go ...

People are alright going on about utd & chelsea's inconsistency but that makes their argument weaker because we haven't taken advantage of that fact. Forget goals scored, etc....we're 11th. That's what matters....Not how many points off 'x' position - that means zilch.

As I said above - means diddly. In the next 2/3 weeks we could as easily be 14/15th. And where have I once said I want martinez given the tin-tack? Although if he doesn't win the derby as a bare minimum, then I'll be reviewing that...

How many points you are off another team, during a season means nothing?

So if you're in 20th with 3 games to go but the team in 17th is only 1 point above you that means nothing cos you're 20th. Might as well just not bother playing the other games?

When a league's really tight you shouldn't draw drastic conclusions from dips in league position as only a small improvement in performance would lead to a big difference in league position. How many points you are off other teams means a lot. The league is so close this season, if we go on a run for 3\4 games without losing and winning a couple all of your arguments will be null and void judging as you go only by current league position, even when the season's not over.

I totally get that it's frustrating that we aren't capatalizing on Utd and Chelsea being poor and I do think we should be doing better than we are but we play a lot of young players who are still learning. My point is we've got a lot of potential to improve over the next few seasons, most teams around us don't have that same level of potential. I try to factor everything in when I judge Martinez not just the current position in the league table, showing total disregard to how close we are to any teams around us.

 

[willo30]

I've made the point before, but the argument that we need to wait til the end of season before giving opinions is just ridiculous. It's a forum, it's open now, people will post on the performances up to this point.

Anybody who says we might finish 6th is quite correct. There's little evidence to suggest it's likely, but it's certainly possible. Similarly, me might finish 16th. Again, unlikely but possible. What I know for a fact though, is that we are currently 11th. I also know that I believe that to be unacceptable, and that even if we put a good run together and finish 6th, I will still feel that the performances and results up to this point have been below par.

If you got in a taxi after the game and asked the driver to take you into town but he started heading down Queens Drive, would you call him on it, or would you just sit there and wait til you arrived in Aigburth, because you wanted to give him a chance? To me, we're heading in the wrong direction, and I will point that out. It may be that he knows what he's doing and we'll get there in the end, but my current feeling is that he's lost.

Once you arrived in Aigburth you would expect the driver too see his error and take you into town. You wouldn't expect him to claim Aigburth is in fact town and to get out here.