Roberto Martinez discussion

[McBain]

Hes not building a short term fixed upper side with the aim of scraping into 6th every season is he?

Hes signing players with a long term focus.

You only need to look at Ross and Rom last season and compare to this season. Short term loss for long term gain...same for stones this season.

Besic another case in point...

He could have used his transfer budgets to sign 30 year old players and push for top 4-6 last two seasons....

Just like Mourinho...

Then now we would be looking at replacing an entire squad this summer.

 

[Abertonian]

Seems to be the same people that are happy to give Martinez all the credit for signing good players that think it's unfair for him to take the criticism when the team doesn't perform.

 

[kithnou]

Hes not building a short term fixed upper side with the aim of scraping into 6th every season is he?

Hes signing players with a long term focus.

You only need to look at Ross and Rom last season and compare to this season. Short term loss for long term gain...same for stones this season.

Besic another case in point...

He could have used his transfer budgets to sign 30 year old players and push for top 4-6 last two seasons....

Just like Mourinho...

Then now we would be looking at replacing an entire squad this summer.

What happens to your argument when Rom and Stones leave mate?
4 home wins in one year, 3 against the bottom 3, bottom half of the table, under 40 points in March isn't going to keep such quality at this club under this Manager.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

Putting Martinez himself to one side.

You dont go from having Moyes as manager for over a decade to being the English Barcelona overnight.

This takes time to change the entire club top to bottom whilst keeping everyone happy at the same time. Its clearly a gradual process and requires patience, money and intelligence.

Where we are now has taken money but still needs probably £100mil more in the squad. Its taken 2.5 years so far and likely needs 1 more year for the squad to be developed together (ages/injuries/summer signings) and the old guard to be moved on this summer.

For the young lads they need another season or two but we can see the potential coming through and its very strong indeed. Likewise the onsite living quarters mentioned 2.5 years ago are now being built in year 3.

This and more requires a positive dynamic forward thinking manager in it for the long term. Someone who is very good signing and developing young players and ok to sacrifice short term results fr long term gain -- which has been the case with us.

We've got a very good side at the moment who are just inconsistent.
The inconsistency will improve, we are making less mistakes, things are getting better and that will only improve with a bit of investment.

Last thing we need is to change manager (and therefore half the squad) every 2 years, spending tens of millions chasing a short term improvement.

 

[Zatara]

"A lot of people will look of people will look silly next season "

Head the same kind of thing this time last year

. A year on nothing has changed for the better on the field.

The only people looking silly are the people predicting things from a manager that he isn't capable of doing.

Time to go Bobby

Not from me, i said 3 years to change the squad.

Heck i even posted threads about players contracts and when they were ending (this summer) and also showed how weak our squad was when he took over.

If you want a Moyes or another type who gets top 6 every season then fair enough.

I want the top future stars of the game coming to us and through our youth teams. I also want a very strong squad created for the next decade so each summer we only sign superstars to take us up a level.

This is whaf takes time and patience.

Our squad is young and there have been mistakes like with Distin and Howard but the positives far outweigh the mistakes.

He is building something which will be very special, im sad only a portion of us can see it.

 

[kithnou]

We've got a very good side at the moment who are just inconsistent.
The inconsistency will improve, we are making less mistakes, things are getting better and that will only improve with a bit of investment.

Last thing we need is to change manager (and therefore half the squad) every 2 years, spending tens of millions chasing a short term improvement.

What happens to your argument when Rom and Stones leave mate?
4 home wins in one year, 3 against the bottom 3, bottom half of the table, under 40 points in March isn't going to keep such quality at this club under this Manager.

 

[Greek Fisherman]

Apologies if this has been posted previously but.... _ _ _ _ ME!

 

[Tree13]

Still more mentions of 'Baffling' substitutions costing us the match. UTTER TRIPE.

This should be fun.

As I said earlier.

We go a man down, he takes off Stones and puts Besic on to revert to a back 4 and take control of the midfield. 30 mins later we are 2-0 up and cruising.

Correct. We've all seen enough of Besic to know he was a great choice to come off the bench at half time. +1 for Martinez.

15 mins to go Lennon is tiring badly (great performance and making up for being a man down). Bobby takes him off and replaces him with another winger who desperately needs some game time to integrate. It should keep the pressure on them going forward and maintain the 2-0 status quo. West Ham push up and score two.

Hmmmm. Niasse is a striker. And he's not fit. And we were a man down against a team who were beginning to dominate midfield. It was a very poor substitution carrying a high risk of going wrong.

Bobby sees that Rom is tired and isn't getting the ball any more so replaces him with Barry to fill out the midfield and hold onto the draw, Naisse goes up top.
Payet scores under a minute later.

Why wasn't Lukaku getting the ball anymore brainiac? Because Martinez made the wrong choice of replacement for Lennon. He should have brought Barry on and pushed Barkley forward, or just bought Del on as a straight swap for Lennon.

You can see the logic in what he did (if you can't put a new player on with 15mins to go whilst 2-0 up at home when can you?). If we'd have put Barry on for Lennon then it would have been telling West Ham that we weren't going to bother trying to get out of our half anymore, yes you could argue in hindsight that his decisions were wrong, but you could also argue that the substitutions didn't actually change anything. Going down to 10 men killed us today. It took away all our options as we tired in the second half.

Bobby didn't make the tired mistakes, what more could he have done differently at the time?

The only thing you got right in that entire paragraph was the point about the red card being a big factor. You don't bring on a half-fit striker with 15 minutes to go in a game where you're down to ten men AND leading 2-0. We had an attacking midfielder who needed to come off and two attacking midfielders who could have taken his place: Del or Barkley. We could have gone with the straight swap with Del, or Barry could have come on to free up Barkley to move forward - neither option would have told WHU that we weren't going to bother trying to get out of our half.. We didn't need a striker on the field, much less a half-fit player. The substitutions clearly DID change something - they allowed WHU to steal the points. You don't need hindsight to see that - they were obviously wrong at the time. The player we needed in the last 20 mins was Barry.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

Seems to be the same people that are happy to give Martinez all the credit for signing good players that think it's unfair for him to take the criticism when the team doesn't perform.

some weeks there's not a lot he can do once he's sent them out onto the pitch and we're 2-0 up. Don't think today was a day when he screwed up, Kev did that and dropped Bobby and the rest of the team right in it. 10 men against West Ham for the best part of an hour? We were always bound to tire and be under the cosh by the end. If he'd have put Barry on instead for the tiring knackered Lennon, he'd have been lambasted for sitting back and having no outlet to relieve the pressure.

Bobby can't win with some fans these days no matter what he does. They were even raging last game about us being 3-0 up at half time. Idiots the lot of them.

 

[Zatara]

What happens to your argument when Rom and Stones leave mate?
4 home wins in one year, 3 against the bottom 3, bottom half of the table, under 40 points in March isn't going to keep such quality at this club under this Manager.

Lukaku who people were saying was useless last season and couldnt hold the ball up? Or Lukaku this season whose close to being top scorer thanks to the improvements in developing him? Only a fee weeks ago be said he was very excited for next season with this team.

Stones who people are wanting to sell now hes going througg a bad patch? Or the stones of next season when he steps up another gear like Lukaku and Barkley and the other young players?

For this style of football to work the whole team needs fo fit the mould of the required player for that position. Just like Barca or Ajax...you cant play that way until you have the right players.

We are playing that style without all the right players as part of a long term vision.

 

[Saint Domingo]

For those who don't see the last 20 months as underachievement, just think that had we appointed Ranieri or Pochettino or a manager of some real talent we could now be talking about us looking at top 4 as a certainty and being in the midst of a title challenge. That could have been ha this season. So for me it's gone past whether Martinez can organise a defence, whether he's learning or not, if the number of non losses since the new year has decreased or anything like that, it's about the opportunity that's been missed. We had the players all fit and in form to do anything this season. Leicester Spurs West Ham are showing that there is no limit. Not only have we not capitalised on what could be a once in a generation chance, we're not even in the top half! For me he had to win the FA cup now or there is literally no point in keeping him around, this season was on a plate for a team like us. Liverpool have messed up but are actually closer despite having a poor squad and changing manager, we have a settled squad and 2 seasons of stability and its counted for Jack all. Not good enough.

 

[Abertonian]

This and more requires a positive dynamic forward thinking manager in it for the long term. Someone who is very good signing and developing young players and ok to sacrifice short term results fr long term gain -- which has been the case with us.

Only works if the players are also prepared to sacrifice short term results for long term gains.

 

[kithnou]

Lukaku who people were saying was useless last season and couldnt hold the ball up? Or Lukaku this season whose close to being top scorer thanks to the improvements in developing him? Only a fee weeks ago be said he was very excited for next season with this team.

Stones who people are wanting to sell now hes going througg a bad patch? Or the stones of next season when he steps up another gear like Lukaku and Barkley and the other young players?

For this style of football to work the whole team needs fo fit the mould of the required player for that position. Just like Barca or Ajax...you cant play that way until you have the right players.

We are playing that style without all the right players as part of a long term vision.

I'll vault you and apologise vehemently should they both be here opening round next season

 

[Zatara]

We've got a very good side at the moment who are just inconsistent.
The inconsistency will improve, we are making less mistakes, things are getting better and that will only improve with a bit of investment.

Last thing we need is to change manager (and therefore half the squad) every 2 years, spending tens of millions chasing a short term improvement.

Even Bilic admitted that if the penalty had gone in then it would have ended 3 or even 4-0.

Martinez says similar and alot of posters call him out on it...this is the gut whose played Mirallas so they should be happy and yet when he does a "Mirallas" blame the manager for not winning the fame when his tactical masterclass should have made us 3-0 ahead.

People saying Niasse should have had more minutes against Villa and then now saying he shouldnt have played today as he wasnt fit???

You actually cant make it up.

Lennon totally goosed, Barry with Stomach problem and yet probably could only last a few mins if needed yet they think hes an option.....Baines is injured but kept on the bench as an emergency yet people want him starting???

Amazing.

 

[Zatara]

Only works if the players are also prepared to sacrifice short term results for long term gains.

Of the key players in my view:

Barkley = Yes
Lukaku has said yes
Deulofeu has said yes
Besic has said yes
McCarthy has said yes
Mori has just joined

The only one i think is stones and looking af him this season is similar to others last season so i would think he would know its better for his career to improve and develop with us.

I think he will stay and all will extend contacts this summer when we make 3 key signings.