Roberto Martinez discussion

[MikeH72]

He has mate. We've seen 4-3-3 in preseason and 4-4-2 when Kone came on.
His Wigan teams were notable for deploying a tactical switch to a 3-5-2.

We've seen him try out a 4-4-2 when we're a goal down and getting desperate, but why does it have to get to that stage before we change it? Barry and McCarthy start every game they're both available for, without fail. The only time we try something else is when we're forced to through injury or suspension. That's a worry, as it blatantly hasn't worked for the past 12 months

 

[mkrudden]

For the first time last year he had to juggle the squad rotation that Europe requires.
He's dealing with the pressures of underperforming for the first time too as well as a fanbase desperate for success and unhappy with how the team has been playing

Valuable experiences that he's only acquiring now.

Just like the team.

Before that, 11 years of the manager saying "expect nothing".

Now we have a manager saying, expect everything in the long-term, bare with me in the short.

Without turning this into a Moyes vs Martinez discussion - the utter dross we were exposed to in 11 years was just unbearable at times. People will point to the consistent finishes, but in comparison to Martinez's first season and the excitement which the style of play produced - there is no competition imo.

The challenge for martinez is through recruitment and a degree of stubborness to, despite his critics, persist and 'perfect' the style and ultimately get back to how we were in that first season.

If he can pull it off then it will be brilliant. I'm willing to give him the patience he deserves, wish more would too.

 

[Tubey]

Tubey did you miss the radical move when our leftback went off on the hour mark for a forward?

Or the amount of crosses and long balls we played in the second half, the crosses in particular being very out of character from what we previously saw last season.

Those subtle changes did go missing last season but considering our general poor form it was kind of inevitable Martinez wasn't going to be so radical when we're playing poorly and confidence is low, but in his first season and during his time with Wigan Martinez was renowned for trying to do something different tactically.

I did not!

Barry went left back, Barkley dropped deeper, Kone took Barkley's role as support striker. Only thing that changed was having a striker in that role instead of a midfielder - the shape stayed exactly the same, except at least with Barkley moved deeper into Barry's role we had a midfielder whose natural instinct was to step forward a bit.

 

[Moomin]

Doesn't help a manager's cause when he's at pains to praise the chairman at every opportunity, as has been the case with both Moyes and Martinez.

They payed them handsomely well to say it. I'm sure we all work for companies who have issues and faults but we are not going to tell clients about it.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I did not!

Barry went left back, Barkley dropped deeper, Kone took Barkley's role as support striker. Only thing that changed was having a striker in that role instead of a midfielder - the shape stayed exactly the same, except at least with Barkley moved deeper into Barry's role we had a midfielder whose natural instinct was to step forward a bit.

Are you really suggesting Kone came on and played as an attacking midfield player and Barkley was employed as a defensive midfielder you're kidding nobody.

Poor effort here Tubes to try and justify your point.

 

[Carlito]

They payed them handsomely well to say it. I'm sure we all work for companies who have issues and faults but we are not going to tell clients about it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand it; but it's also why I'm never too sympathetic when fans point the finger at the manager over transfers.

 

[riddick]

We've seen him try out a 4-4-2 when we're a goal down and getting desperate, but why does it have to get to that stage before we change it? Barry and McCarthy start every game they're both available for, without fail. The only time we try something else is when we're forced to through injury or suspension. That's a worry, as it blatantly hasn't worked for the past 12 months

Thats the part that annoys me greatly. We were at home...to Watford...on the first day of the year....without our starting LB. Why on the fn EARTH would he start with 2 DM having SIX outfield players with no forward nous to their game?

 

[Tubey]

Are you really suggesting Kone came on and played as an attacking midfield player and Barkley was employed as a defensive midfielder you're kidding nobody.

Poor effort here Tubes to try and justify your point.

No mate, I'm saying we played the exact same shape, just further up the field because Watford had dropped off to defend a lead.

We still went with two deep midfielders and one winger. The alternative would have been to leave Barkley in his role and put Kone up front, and go with one defensive midfielder.

I said earlier the Kone decision worked as it was at least something different.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

No mate, I'm saying we played the exact same shape, just further up the field because Watford had dropped off to defend a lead.

We still went with two deep midfielders and one winger. The alternative would have been to leave Barkley in his role and put Kone up front, and go with one defensive midfielder.

I said earlier the Kone decision worked as it was at least something different.

Kone did go up front, alongside Lukaku, as in we played 2 up front together.

It was closer to 3-5-2 by the time Mirallas left the pitch for Ovideo and stayed that way for the last 20-25 minutes, a lot different to the 4-2-3-1 from the first half.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

@Tubey - we didn't keep the same shape when Kone came on. He played up top with Lukaku as a pair. Barkley had been playing in the No.10 role. It wasn't a straight swap that's plain wrong mate.

What he didn't do was set them up correctly and they completely lost their shape. Watford were far better marshalled and they barely knew each others names ffs.

 

[chippy1722]

Just like the team.

Before that, 11 years of the manager saying "expect nothing".

Now we have a manager saying, expect everything in the long-term, bare with me in the short.

Without turning this into a Moyes vs Martinez discussion - the utter dross we were exposed to in 11 years was just unbearable at times. People will point to the consistent finishes, but in comparison to Martinez's first season and the excitement which the style of play produced - there is no competition imo.

The challenge for martinez is through recruitment and a degree of stubborness to, despite his critics, persist and 'perfect' the style and ultimately get back to how we were in that first season.

If he can pull it off then it will be brilliant. I'm willing to give him the patience he deserves, wish more would too.

I think the "expect nothing" came in the latter years after Moyes realised he wasn't gonna get anything he wanted with this board. I think if Martinez had the same treatment he would become worn down too. I don't think can be compared because Moyes inherited a pretty awful team and over time brought in some cracking players. Martinez inherited a much better team and there is supposedly more money available to him. Lukaku cost more than Moyes's first 20 signings put together.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

after Moyes realised he wasn't gonna get anything he wanted with this board.

Apart from the board making Moyes one of the highest paid managers in not just the prem, but in Europe.

 

[chippy1722]

I fully agree but that has no bearing on what team he can put out on a Saturday.

He was also getting some interest from other clubs around that time.

 

[Tubey]

Kone did go up front, alongside Lukaku, as in we played 2 up front together.

It was closer to 3-5-2 by the time Mirallas left the pitch for Ovideo and stayed that way for the last 20-25 minutes, a lot different to the 4-2-3-1 from the first half.

I know, I said that.

The only tactical change I saw was bringing on Kone to give us two strikers late on as a desperate measure for an equaliser.

But I don't think that was a change in shape - Kone dropped a bit deeper but as a result of being a striker naturally played a bit further upfield than Barkley had, and the same with Barkley in the middle two instead of Barry. The personnel changed, the shape didn't - we didn't suddenly adopt a diamond-shaped 4-4-2, we just had two players in roles where their natural instinct was to play further up than the players they replaced did.

By the time that had happened we'd played 62 minutes in a busted system without a change.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I know, I said that.



But I don't think that was a change in shape - Kone dropped a bit deeper but as a result of being a striker naturally played a bit further upfield than Barkley had, and the same with Barkley in the middle two instead of Barry. The personnel changed, the shape didn't - we didn't suddenly adopt a diamond-shaped 4-4-2, we just had two players in roles where their natural instinct was to play further up than the players they replaced did.

By the time that had happened we'd played 62 minutes in a busted system without a change.

So Barkley was playing as a support striker and when Kone replaced him he played further forward than Barkley was but not actually up front?

Bonkers.