Romelu Lukaku

[Old Blue 2]

Or you could just, you know, not take stuff on a forum quite so seriously? I was making a flippant remark about how far we'd fallen, not criticising your post.

Now that you've poked me with a big stick though, I'll happily point out that I think you're chatting absolute wham & are using the most simplistic logic imaginable to try to make your point.

Your assertion that Liverpool winning the league had nothing to do with them, and actually was entirely our doing, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever had the good fortune to read. You can't isolate one stat from the other, the league is a competition between teams, so each team's performance has a direct effect on the league as a whole. If their form in the previous 12 games had been even close to that shown in their last 12, we would never have been in the title race. Hell, there wouldn't have been a title race, they'd have won it by February. When a team wins 11 and draws 1 of their last 12 games they will invariably win the league. If Liverpool had gone on a run like that in 85 or 87 we probably wouldn't have won the league then either.

You're blaming Lineker because it's the easy thing to do. His signing was the only obvious difference between the squads in those years so you're putting 2 & 2 together and getting 5. Despite it being pointed out that other players in the team scored plenty of goals that season, you've somehow managed to mangle the logic to such an extent that the teams failure to score many goals during a 10 game run is laid entirely at the feet of one man. You've also made the common but rather basic mistake of believing that a team's performance is measurable only against their own performance in other years, and not factoring in the varying quality of opposition. . It's a bit like suggesting the team that finished 4th with Kilbane, Watson, Bent et al was better than the teams finishing 5th with Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Yakubu and then Barkley, Coleman and Lukaku

I think some people are guilty of doing the same with Lukaku. Rather than focussing on how reliant we are on him for goals and moaning that he doesn't hold the ball up well enough as if it's his fault, I prefer to think that if we actually signed some better players and played to Lukaku's strengths more, he could be the man to fire us to glory. It's a hell of a lot easier to win stuff with a 20+ goal a season striker in your side than it is without one.

You completely miss the point I have been making. What transpired in '85-'86 was that we became so dependent on Lineker to score to win games/pick up points, that when we needed others to score on a regular basis, it didn't happen. Hence my pointing out that in the 10 games following the 2-0 win at Anfield, only 7 goals came from players other than Lineker. That's the point. It's not a case of blaming Lineker, it is more a case of the dependency of the team on his goalscoring to deliver the points all the time. When he dried up (2 from those 10 games) we blew it. We were runners-up by 2 points, in a season when it was 3 points for a win...

I totally agree with your last paragraph about having players around Lukaku to play to his strengths more. But we need players who can also weigh in with goals on a regular basis.

 

[Prevenger17]

Did anyone actually make a bid for Lukaku last season?

Nothing significant as far as I can. Our supposed version of Bale/Suarez doesn't seem to be having massive clubs reaching for their wallets. I wonder why

 

[Old Blue 2]

So.......in order to make the facts fit your spurious argument, you are expunging the last two games of that season.

A 3-1 victory over Hammers and a 6-1 defeat of Saints.

lol

We won seven of our last twelve games and drew three.

That is 24 points out of 36.

As you have been told.....we did nowt or little wrong on the run in.

It was down to the RS winning eleven games and drawing one in the twelve games after they lost to us.

A truly phenomenal finish to the season.

If they had had a normal, or merely a great finish, we would have won the title comfortably because despite that they only beat us by two points

I know all of the above, but by the time of the next-to-last game against a crap Southampton side, it was out of our hands. All the RS needed to do was win at Chelsea and that was it. Chelsea were lamentable that day, from listening to the live commentary on the radio, and seeing their abject performance later on MOTD.

"...we did nowt or little wrong on the run in..." Come on, losing to Luton Town and Oxford United (who finished 18th!) in two of the last 12 games...

 

[Lanolin]

You completely miss the point I have been making. What transpired in '85-'86 was that we became so dependent on Lineker to score to win games/pick up points, that when we needed others to score on a regular basis, it didn't happen. Hence my pointing out that in the 10 games following the 2-0 win at Anfield, only 7 goals came from players other than Lineker. That's the point. It's not a case of blaming Lineker, it is more a case of the dependency of the team on his goalscoring to deliver the points all the time. When he dried up (2 from those 10 games) we blew it. We were runners-up by 2 points, in a season when it was 3 points for a win...

I totally agree with your last paragraph about having players around Lukaku to play to his strengths more. But we need players who can also weigh in with goals on a regular basis.

I'm not missing the point, I'm just disagreeing with it. In 86 we failed to score in 5 league games, in 87 we failed to score in 9. The stats don't back up what you're saying at all, they suggest that Lineker's ability to put the ball in the net was a help not a hindrance, exactly as you would expect it to be.

Heath scored more in 86 than he did in 85, Sharpe scored more in 86 than he did in 87 - neither of these things point to what you're saying being true, maybe Lineker actually brought out the best in them. Lukaku can be the same in my opinion, his ability to score, and to terrorise defenders when he runs at them, could make a bog standard centre forward up there with him look like a top player. Someone who just did the simple things and held the ball up could look very effective - just like Kone did for a spell last year. If we actually got attacking players of a decent standard, so that Lukaku wasn't our only real threat, I dread to think how many he could score.

 

[USABlue]

He could be playing for a CL team, we've finished 11 the past two years. doesnt mean anyone hates everton, just that we arent were we should be

 

[Old Blue 2]

I'm not missing the point, I'm just disagreeing with it. In 86 we failed to score in 5 league games, in 87 we failed to score in 9. The stats don't back up what you're saying at all, they suggest that Lineker's ability to put the ball in the net was a help not a hindrance, exactly as you would expect it to be.

Heath scored more in 86 than he did in 85, Sharpe scored more in 86 than he did in 87 - neither of these things point to what you're saying being true, maybe Lineker actually brought out the best in them. Lukaku can be the same in my opinion, his ability to score, and to terrorise defenders when he runs at them, could make a bog standard centre forward up there with him look like a top player. Someone who just did the simple things and held the ball up could look very effective - just like Kone did for a spell last year. If we actually got attacking players of a decent standard, so that Lukaku wasn't our only real threat, I dread to think how many he could score.

OK, let's examine exactly what you say here: "...The stats don't back up what you're saying at all, they suggest that Lineker's ability to put the ball in the net was a help not a hindrance,..." Do you really think that I have been advocating that Lineker's ability to score was a HINDRANCE? REALLY? Of course not!

I will state this once again, at the risk of repeating myself time and time again.
The statistics that I put up, showing that in the 10 game period after the 2-0 win at Anfield we only scored 9 goals, and only 7 of them came from players other than Lineker, showed that, for those 7 goals in 10 games, we lacked regular scoring from other areas of the team in that crucial part of the season. 'In that crucial part of the season' is the crux of my point (when we lost to Luton Town & Oxford United ffs!). That is a fact, outwith anything else we had done prior to those 10 games.

The back end of that season still annoys me intensely...

 

[Tubey]

OK, let's examine exactly what you say here: "...The stats don't back up what you're saying at all, they suggest that Lineker's ability to put the ball in the net was a help not a hindrance,..." Do you really think that I have been advocating that Lineker's ability to score was a HINDRANCE? REALLY? Of course not!

I will state this once again, at the risk of repeating myself time and time again.
The statistics that I put up, showing that in the 10 game period after the 2-0 win at Anfield we only scored 9 goals, and only 7 of them came from players other than Lineker, showed that, for those 7 goals in 10 games, we lacked regular scoring from other areas of the team in that crucial part of the season. 'In that crucial part of the season' is the crux of my point (when we lost to Luton Town & Oxford United ffs!). That is a fact, outwith anything else we had done prior to those 10 games.

The back end of that season still annoys me intensely...

You're wasting your time.

I've said over and over again the same thing about Lukaku as you are doing, but the moment you criticise ANY aspect of his game, you "hate" Lukaku and "think he's crap."

You're spot on anyway. We have a world class goalscorer on our hands, but a mediocre footballer at the same time, and it means that we're too easily nullified because our whole system relies on one person turning up, instead of a more balanced side overall.

 

[Lanolin]

OK, let's examine exactly what you say here: "...The stats don't back up what you're saying at all, they suggest that Lineker's ability to put the ball in the net was a help not a hindrance,..." Do you really think that I have been advocating that Lineker's ability to score was a HINDRANCE? REALLY? Of course not!

I will state this once again, at the risk of repeating myself time and time again.
The statistics that I put up, showing that in the 10 game period after the 2-0 win at Anfield we only scored 9 goals, and only 7 of them came from players other than Lineker, showed that, for those 7 goals in 10 games, we lacked regular scoring from other areas of the team in that crucial part of the season. 'In that crucial part of the season' is the crux of my point (when we lost to Luton Town & Oxford United ffs!). That is a fact, outwith anything else we had done prior to those 10 games.

The back end of that season still annoys me intensely...

Yeah, I can see that.

You don't need to keep repeating yourself though, I really do understand what you're saying - I just don't agree. It's fine, neither of us can prove the other wrong, it's just opinions. In my opinion it would be a bit (well, a lot) weird for the players to have forgotten to score just 'in that crucial part of the season'. I'd say it's more likely that they got tired, or that the pressure of being out in front told and they got nervous, than the presence of Lineker meant the other players forgot how to score.

 

[Lanolin]

You're wasting your time.

I've said over and over again the same thing about Lukaku as you are doing, but the moment you criticise ANY aspect of his game, you "hate" Lukaku and "think he's crap."

You're spot on anyway. We have a world class goalscorer on our hands, but a mediocre footballer at the same time, and it means that we're too easily nullified because our whole system relies on one person turning up, instead of a more balanced side overall.

Umm, we're talking about Lineker mate...

I agree with your point about Lukaku, although as I've said, I think it's more that the other players aren't good enough rather than it being his fault that we rely on him. You keep on kicking off about things that never got said though, don't let me stop you.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Yeah, I can see that.

You don't need to keep repeating yourself though, I really do understand what you're saying - I just don't agree. It's fine, neither of us can prove the other wrong, it's just opinions. In my opinion it would be a bit (well, a lot) weird for the players to have forgotten to score just 'in that crucial part of the season'. I'd say it's more likely that they got tired, or that the pressure of being out in front told and they got nervous, than the presence of Lineker meant the other players forgot how to score.

I think it also comes down to 'style of play'. I would love nothing more than 3 or 4 of our other players scoring regularly, and as a result putting the frighteners on a lot of other teams in the Prem. At the moment, however, I can't see it happening...

 

[Tubey]

Umm, we're talking about Lineker mate...

I agree with your point about Lukaku, although as I've said, I think it's more that the other players aren't good enough rather than it being his fault that we rely on him. You keep on kicking off about things that never got said though, don't let me stop you.

Nope, that discussion led from a discussion about Lukaku, where Lineker's role in the 80s side was similar.

The big clue about that might be the thread title.

 

[Lanolin]

Nope, that discussion led from a discussion about Lukaku, where Lineker's role in the 80s side was similar.

The big clue about that might be the thread title.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. You quoted a post which was a direct response to my post, which was about Lineker, and said 'you're wasting your time... you're spot on' etc etc. You'll forgive me, I'm sure, for believing that the post you quoted was the post you were talking about.

 

[Tubey]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. You quoted a post which was a direct response to my post, which was about Lineker, and said 'you're wasting your time... you're spot on' etc etc. You'll forgive me, I'm sure, for believing that the post you quoted was the post you were talking about.

Ah OK. Yeah I was replying to the underlying point mate, which was about Lukaku.

 

[PITA]

Or you could just, you know, not take stuff on a forum quite so seriously? I was making a flippant remark about how far we'd fallen, not criticising your post.

Now that you've poked me with a big stick though, I'll happily point out that I think you're chatting absolute wham & are using the most simplistic logic imaginable to try to make your point.

Your assertion that Liverpool winning the league had nothing to do with them, and actually was entirely our doing, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever had the good fortune to read. You can't isolate one stat from the other, the league is a competition between teams, so each team's performance has a direct effect on the league as a whole. If their form in the previous 12 games had been even close to that shown in their last 12, we would never have been in the title race. Hell, there wouldn't have been a title race, they'd have won it by February. When a team wins 11 and draws 1 of their last 12 games they will invariably win the league. If Liverpool had gone on a run like that in 85 or 87 we probably wouldn't have won the league then either.

You're blaming Lineker because it's the easy thing to do. His signing was the only obvious difference between the squads in those years so you're putting 2 & 2 together and getting 5. Despite it being pointed out that other players in the team scored plenty of goals that season, you've somehow managed to mangle the logic to such an extent that the teams failure to score many goals during a 10 game run is laid entirely at the feet of one man. You've also made the common but rather basic mistake of believing that a team's performance is measurable only against their own performance in other years, and not factoring in the varying quality of opposition. . It's a bit like suggesting the team that finished 4th with Kilbane, Watson, Bent et al was better than the teams finishing 5th with Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Yakubu and then Barkley, Coleman and Lukaku

I think some people are guilty of doing the same with Lukaku. Rather than focussing on how reliant we are on him for goals and moaning that he doesn't hold the ball up well enough as if it's his fault, I prefer to think that if we actually signed some better players and played to Lukaku's strengths more, he could be the man to fire us to glory. It's a hell of a lot easier to win stuff with a 20+ goal a season striker in your side than it is without one.

Top posting.

 

[Jreverton1]

Nothing significant as far as I can. Our supposed version of Bale/Suarez doesn't seem to be having massive clubs reaching for their wallets. I wonder why

That's the reason I ask, if no one actually wants him he won't be getting sold! I do think we're better off with him than without tho.