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Ronald Koeman discussion

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Its not just about the team selection. It's about the actual gameplan.

You're kidding yourself if you think we hammered them for half an hour. We were on the front foot but we never looked like scoring. Not even nearly looked like scoring. We battled well, and had more of the ball for half an hour, but we never worried them once.

Despite you repeatedly saying they only won because of luck, our keepers made 2 very good saves, they had a deflection just wide and had they not scored they would still have hit the post.

The closest we came to scoring was a header from a set piece which was caught by the keeper when travelling at 2mph. You're right, it was a tactical masterpiece.

I was watching the game with my RS mate. Knows his stuff, surprisingly for them.

He was hating it. He was genuinely frightened.

His exact words were to me at HT "I don't know how we got away with that."

D'you know what I told him. "We've probably run out of steam, and we're screwed (been polite here btw), if McCarthy goes off"

And not anywhere have I said it was a tactical masterpiece. We were atrocious in the second half, but equally so that's the best we've played from the off all season. Our problem was we couldn't take advantage of it. IMO that's not down to the manager, that's got to be down to the players on the pitch - as the tactics that the manager used in that first 30 minutes were working perfectly?

Their chances:

- Origi, 36 mins, drills miles wide - not clear-cut in anyway
- Firmino, 75(ish) mins, great save - again, not exactly a clear chance, just a good shot
- Mane, 96 mins, goal - the only 'clear-cut' chance

Our chances:
- Mori, 45 mins, free header, six yards out, puts it wide

Those are the chances. Forget efforts on target. They can be - as you said - a thunderbolt or a crap, looping header.
 
As equally as cheap as yours Chris.

He ain't going anywhere soon is he?

it's an awful run, people seem to think I'm saying we haven't been crap...

But he's gonna get the window, and the rest of the season.

We're one point behind 7th at Christmas. We all wanted to be higher - we should be aiming to be higher - but with this squad we're realistically around where we should be.

Improvement is needed - from them all, including the manager.

But a big start would be ripping the core of this side to shreds over the next two windows and starting fresh.

Improvement starts with the mamager
As equally as cheap as yours Chris.

He ain't going anywhere soon is he?

it's an awful run, people seem to think I'm saying we haven't been crap...

But he's gonna get the window, and the rest of the season.

We're one point behind 7th at Christmas. We all wanted to be higher - we should be aiming to be higher - but with this squad we're realistically around where we should be.

Improvement is needed - from them all, including the manager.

But a big start would be ripping the core of this side to shreds over the next two windows and starting fresh.

We'll see what he does but if he doesn't change that game plan of hoofball then the crowd will turn. And he's just extended contract's for Barry and baines, not the best start for ripping the squad apart
 
I explained this to you last week. I gave you examples and everything to make it easier to understand. Your position can be false, undoubtedly. It's fairly obvious too to be brutally honest.

We disagree on this.

I tend to look at the table and think teams are where they belong because of how many points they have.

It's a pretty good indicator of how good you are.

Chelsea finished 10th last year because nine teams performed better than them, thus picking up more points...
 
FFS!!!

Your position in the table CANNOT - by definition - be false.

You are where you are because of how many points you have accumulated, regardless of performances.

It's such a non-argument fgs.

There has been 11 teams that have collected less points than we have.

Bournemouth have been lauded for their displays, but they are below us, as an example.
Objectively correct, but missing levels of nuance.

We are in a 'false' position based on our current performance and displays. This means that should the trend continue, one would expect the position to change for the worse. That's a completely reasonable statement and assessment, as well as the intent behind the message. It is attacking the wording rather than the argument to pull this statement up on it's factual accuracy, as the statement is one of prognostication.

Bournemouth beat us. They have looked very good against what one would assume to be superior opposition, and appear to be moving in the right direction. They may still finish below us. They have a tiny lil wage bill compared to ours and that would be the natural order. However, when during a season one makes statements about how the table is 'false', the statement must be assumed to be a prognostication.

We've been crap for months. I had hoped Arsenal turned it for us. And being us, and playing them, of course Jamo would be hurt in the infancy of an apparent renaissance. Koeman has to do better. It's not all 'the players'. It's partly the players. But ffs, it's not like Kev and Del don't know how to open up a defense. Koeman has decided that keeping them on the bench in favor of hard workers with no end product is a superior option. Your stance seems to be based on the fact that Koeman did pretty well at Soton, that means he's right, it's all Bobby's fault and the players are trash.

The players are trash. They have no idea how they're expected to play football, and can't maintain any level of focus for more than 45 minutes. I am totally willing to blame bad habits like that on Martinez.

But when do we expect Koeman to make an impact? Are all those players write-offs? Should every one of them retire, because they no longer can play football at all?

Eh, actually that seems plausible too. I get the player hatred. I just think we're crap enough for there to be enough disappointment to spread through the squad and on up to the staff.
 

It did tonight yes... if you can't see the difference in approach between the 2 halves then I must have watched a different game.

Don't think we watched a different game, more that we differ on the approach.
Lamenting the loss of a player, at half-time, who the manager didn't actually want, is different to deciding why the difference occurred.
They were always to going to play 'better' in the 2nd half so, instead of simply replacing him with Barry, why not drop Ross deeper and put Kev on? (Ross ran his socks off, which apparently under the new manager is what he's meant to do). We didn't have a threat all game, that 'might' have been it?
 
Improvement starts with the mamager


We'll see what he does but if he doesn't change that game plan of hoofball then the crowd will turn. And he's just extended contract's for Barry and baines, not the best start for ripping the squad apart

But it wasn't hoofball!!!!

We were pressing high, and Barkley had about 4/5 runs in the opening half-an-hour straight through Liverpool's midfield.

The problem is, only on one occasion did he get the ball to a teammate. Three times he lost possession, and the last time he had a shot that went wide.

Same with Valencia, same with Rom. We lacked that final ball, that cutting edge. But we weren't playing hoofball.

Second half was an abomination, and it's sickening that one injury saw us crumble.
 
@BlueToff I'm not calling for his head, but can you answer me something? Do you not think it's a bit peculiar it seems that Koeman's strategy is to hoof it to a player that has no ability whatsoever to be even mediocre at this strategy?

Or that he's mentioned numerous times that the players need to do more running yet it doesn't seem they have improved their fitness whatsoever?

I just don't get what is going on with this team.
 
But it wasn't hoofball!!!!

We were pressing high, and Barkley had about 4/5 runs in the opening half-an-hour straight through Liverpool's midfield.

The problem is, only on one occasion did he get the ball to a teammate. Three times he lost possession, and the last time he had a shot that went wide.

Same with Valencia, same with Rom. We lacked that final ball, that cutting edge. But we weren't playing hoofball.

Second half was an abomination, and it's sickening that one injury saw us crumble.

Like I said on numerous occasions bar one and half games we've played hoofball. The introduction of a player who koeman didn't want has madev us press a bit.

We lacked the cutting edge because the majority of the season we have been toothless going forward, it's been pretty abysmal actually because of how we are approaching games. It's right there in black and white. Opposition goalkeeper's are rarely tested against us
 
Objectively correct, but missing levels of nuance.

We are in a 'false' position based on our current performance and displays. This means that should the trend continue, one would expect the position to change for the worse. That's a completely reasonable statement and assessment, as well as the intent behind the message. It is attacking the wording rather than the argument to pull this statement up on it's factual accuracy, as the statement is one of prognostication.

Bournemouth beat us. They have looked very good against what one would assume to be superior opposition, and appear to be moving in the right direction. They may still finish below us. They have a tiny lil wage bill compared to ours and that would be the natural order. However, when during a season one makes statements about how the table is 'false', the statement must be assumed to be a prognostication.

We've been crap for months. I had hoped Arsenal turned it for us. And being us, and playing them, of course Jamo would be hurt in the infancy of an apparent renaissance. Koeman has to do better. It's not all 'the players'. It's partly the players. But ffs, it's not like Kev and Del don't know how to open up a defense. Koeman has decided that keeping them on the bench in favor of hard workers with no end product is a superior option. Your stance seems to be based on the fact that Koeman did pretty well at Soton, that means he's right, it's all Bobby's fault and the players are trash.

The players are trash. They have no idea how they're expected to play football, and can't maintain any level of focus for more than 45 minutes. I am totally willing to blame bad habits like that on Martinez.

But when do we expect Koeman to make an impact? Are all those players write-offs? Should every one of them retire, because they no longer can play football at all?

Eh, actually that seems plausible too. I get the player hatred. I just think we're crap enough for there to be enough disappointment to spread through the squad and on up to the staff.

Right, see I agree with that, 100%.

But hypothetically, had somebody given you a pic of the table at Xmas in pre-season, you'd have been... relatively speaking - content, yeh?

My argument isn't that at all.

My argument is that Koeman has certainly made mistakes. But today, he got the team and the tactics right.

He stuck with the side that beat Arsenal, and he stuck with the tactics that beat Arsenal.

For the first 30 minutes, we dominated Liverpool. They had one 'effort' on goal - it went out near the corner flag - and about 55% possession. What we didn't do - and this is where I believe the players are at fault - is make them pay and exert any authority. The manager cannot score a goal...

So, we get to half-time having sat off for 10 minutes (at this stage, I wasn't worried - I knew it would happen) and they created their first chance. Ironically, that woke us up, and we rallied a bit before the break - resulting in Funes heading wide unmarked from six yards out.

The second-half, the injury to Jamo rocked us. I find that the most worrying. I find it worrying that the only option was Barry, who can't run, and I find it worrying that the rest of the players crumbled and resorted to sitting deep.

Then, I do not believe that Koeman helped with a poor substitution, though I don't think Calvert-Lewin lost us the game.
 
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We disagree on this.

I tend to look at the table and think teams are where they belong because of how many points they have.

It's a pretty good indicator of how good you are.

Chelsea finished 10th last year because nine teams performed better than them, thus picking up more points...
Yes, but you're missing the critical point that has been pointed out to you before. They finished 10th, but they spent most of the season lower than that. They were never the 10th best team in the league, but a poor run of form at the start scuppered their chances of going higher. You can say league position doesn't lie after 38 games, but it can after 16 because it's a smaller pool of results.

We had a good run early this season but if we keep getting results like we have for the last 3 months we will drop like a stone, and our current position will be shown to be false.
 
But it wasn't hoofball!!!!

We were pressing high, and Barkley had about 4/5 runs in the opening half-an-hour straight through Liverpool's midfield.

The problem is, only on one occasion did he get the ball to a teammate. Three times he lost possession, and the last time he had a shot that went wide.

Same with Valencia, same with Rom. We lacked that final ball, that cutting edge. But we weren't playing hoofball.

Second half was an abomination, and it's sickening that one injury saw us crumble.

You said he was crab like?
Anyway, you literally can't make every negative into a positive, although I admire you for trying!
Sometimes, you just have to say %Y)((*^$£^&*(
 
@BlueToff I'm not calling for his head, but can you answer me something? Do you not think it's a bit peculiar it seems that Koeman's strategy is to hoof it to a player that has no ability whatsoever to be even mediocre at this strategy?

Or that he's mentioned numerous times that the players need to do more running yet it doesn't seem they have improved their fitness whatsoever?

I just don't get what is going on with this team.

I actually agree with that. Rom isn't a long ball player.

But, we do need to get the ball forward quickly as that is when we're actually a dangerous team. That's not 'hoofing' - fans need to stop saying it is - it's just not the fiddly crap of the last six months of the RM reign.

That means that we need players in and around him to pick up the scraps as he can't hold the ball up himself.

First half, we did just that, and that's because we had McCarthy, Barkley, Valencia, Lennon all pushed up, with Gueye covering. The one disappointment i had that was when we didn't have the ball, we switched to a 4-4-1-1, with Barkley in no man's land once more. I don't know why that happened given how well 4-3-3 worked last week.
 

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