Ronald Koeman discussion

[jceverton]

Imagine if we hadn't had that great start to the season.

We were very lucky the way the opening fixtures fell and fortunately we took advantage.

 

[Baines' left foot]

Even though we're a bit crap we're still 'best of the rest' in 7th place. We will quite likely be 9 points behind Man U by this evening but Man U have just spent silly money on Ibrahimovic, Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailly amongst others and have hardly improved, yet we've jumped 4 places from being awful to okay. Let's be honest here, 11th place flattered us over the last two seasons, we were lucky to finish that high.

Koeman has done okay so far with a poor squad of players that don't fit in with the way he plays. The summer was a disaster, with the blame shouldered across a few members of senior management including Koeman and Walsh. I'm not worried or concerned, just a bit frustrated.

We're moving in the right direction.

 

[rochdaleblue]

I'm not fuming either. I almost didn't dare hope for a win last night, such is the seemingly monumental task of winning 2 games running to this squad.

But, if we have little or nothing to lose between now and May, surely we should expect more game time for Holgate and Davies at the very least, and perhaps DCL and Kenny too.

I'm scratching my head as to why Barry was given an extension, as much as I think he has been very decent for us in the main. It's still indicative of the mentality that exists at Everton I feel. Give him another year whilst his performance levels and ability to cope with the rigours of the game at his age have tailed off significantly.

We are where I expected us to be more of less, but in such a poor league, the position in the table only tells half the story. Beginning in January, we have to start to finally and urgently address the glaring issues in the squad, most particularly the creaking age and apparent lack of fitness to sustain 90 minutes.

We have no real characters in the squad either, a lot of greyness personality wise and in ability. We need a stand out leader and even a bad smell character, to rile opponents. We are bereft of talkers and leaders, and most certainly very weak mentally both on an individual level and as a group.

Not only a lack of quality on the pitch but also a lack of leadership. We are so quiet and passive on the pitch, as you say we lack characters.

 

[Stutheblue]

We might finish 7th, but could easily be 8th or 9th at end of season. Doesn't matter massively in that context. Its how far behind the top 6 we are (and are going to be) by the end of the season.
Need to make sure in these next 2 windows that the gap can be closed sufficiently enough to make us competitive at that level.

 

[jceverton]

Based on last night you can finally see what the issue is.

There isn't any chemistry in the team whatsoever. A bunch of individuals with no idea how to play together when asked to which is amazing considering how many of them have been together for years. Players just don't read each other, no one really trusts in each other and yet again too quick to make a decision on the pitch. The fact there is no instinct there, so many passes made hoping they reach their target with no knowledge of who will be where.

And that is the thing, you saw in flashes that when a player has confidence they can do things. Ross cross in the second half which was dangerous started from him making a good decision and pulling it off as well. The fact he ran outside rather than look for a shot suddenly made things happen.

Largely the team just isn't mobile and that kinda leads into the issue we have, the midfield covers for Barry ala slippy g except the one asked to do thst needs to be doing what Barry is doing, not doing it for him. Players do need to be moving about more and not waiting for the ball, all by instinct as well. If one has the ball, get into the space rather than wait for the pass.

Overall more signs that this squad needs to be overhauled and started again. So many players have regressed and offer very little now. Now is not the time to be sentimental anymore because this is what that gets us. Even players I have backed for years like baines and jags need to be moved on or relegated to the squad and replaced because fundamentally these are the same players who have won nothing in years, change the team change the mentality and stop hanging onto the same players because before we know it they will be retiring here and we have just hoped for the best.

This window no matter how little faith I have has to be good. We have to start rebuilding now, 3-4 players in with a couple out now or we will just he back here next season.

Did you see Carraghers analysis on Sky after the game mate? He showed fairly clearly that one of the main problems is the defence not being mobile enough and compacting play, leaving big distance from back to front. When you add Barry into that situation it's a recipe for trouble. Bottom line we need to ship out some of the older players and get some more youth and energy into the team. In this context giving Barry and Baines new contracts, signing Williams, being interested in Rooney is all a bit strange.

 

[jceverton]

Even though we're a bit crap we're still 'best of the rest' in 7th place. We will quite likely be 9 points behind Man U by this evening but Man U have just spent silly money on Ibrahimovic, Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailly amongst others and have hardly improved, yet we've jumped 4 places from being awful to okay. Let's be honest here, 11th place flattered us over the last two seasons, we were lucky to finish that high.

Koeman has done okay so far with a poor squad of players that don't fit in with the way he plays. The summer was a disaster, with the blame shouldered across a few members of senior management including Koeman and Walsh. I'm not worried or concerned, just a bit frustrated.

We're moving in the right direction.

11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.

 

[Ashtonian]

Did you see Carraghers analysis on Sky after the game mate? He showed fairly clearly that one of the main problems is the defence not being mobile enough and compacting play, leaving big distance from back to front. When you add Barry into that situation it's a recipe for trouble. Bottom line we need to ship out some of the older players and get some more youth and energy into the team. In this context giving Barry and Baines new contracts, signing Williams, being interested in Rooney is all a bit strange.

I didn't. I read something on sky sports before saying that though. It is true, having a less mobile defence is fine when the players in front can cover ground ala why Mccarthy paired with Gueye worked fine for us. Barry just can't cover ground so it leaves a massive gap in the middle that Gueye has to cover as well as his own area on the pitch which is why teams then can get space moving forward.

In short. If your centre halves stand there and stop the ball going past them then nothing wrong with that. But when there is no outlet for them to move up the pitch by the other 6 players then the defence has to compensate for that, and if they cant then it leaves them exposed.

 

[Ashtonian]

11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.

Just to pick up on this.

The squad 3 years ago was good yes. But look at the squad and compare it 3 years on. Ours has barely changed, the teams above us have improved theirs in some way, from West ham signing payet to liverpool and Spurs improving and refining what they had. 3 years ago these players were fine, but the fact we barely improved ours in that time left them 3 years older and stuck in their ways and used to a way of doing things.

Some players at the club believe they are the team, which again was fine 3 years ago with results but once the results go and they still believe they are the team then something fundamentally has gone wrong there. They all downed tools at the same time and give them hakf a chance they will do it again. Best way to counter that is by getting rid of them and building a new everton team, where they aren't guaranteed a place no matter how bad they play.

 

[hullefc]

Based on last night you can finally see what the issue is.

There isn't any chemistry in the team whatsoever. A bunch of individuals with no idea how to play together when asked to which is amazing considering how many of them have been together for years. Players just don't read each other, no one really trusts in each other and yet again too quick to make a decision on the pitch. The fact there is no instinct there, so many passes made hoping they reach their target with no knowledge of who will be where.

And that is the thing, you saw in flashes that when a player has confidence they can do things. Ross cross in the second half which was dangerous started from him making a good decision and pulling it off as well. The fact he ran outside rather than look for a shot suddenly made things happen.

Largely the team just isn't mobile and that kinda leads into the issue we have, the midfield covers for Barry ala slippy g except the one asked to do thst needs to be doing what Barry is doing, not doing it for him. Players do need to be moving about more and not waiting for the ball, all by instinct as well. If one has the ball, get into the space rather than wait for the pass.

Overall more signs that this squad needs to be overhauled and started again. So many players have regressed and offer very little now. Now is not the time to be sentimental anymore because this is what that gets us. Even players I have backed for years like baines and jags need to be moved on or relegated to the squad and replaced because fundamentally these are the same players who have won nothing in years, change the team change the mentality and stop hanging onto the same players because before we know it they will be retiring here and we have just hoped for the best.

This window no matter how little faith I have has to be good. We have to start rebuilding now, 3-4 players in with a couple out now or we will just he back here next season.

So much right about this post.

 

[Baines' left foot]

11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.

You're right, but I think it's unrealistic to expect any better than 7th with the squad we have and the finances we have had available to us up until recently. We struggled to attract real talent in the summer largely because of two very poor seasons. It's going to take more than 6 months to sort this mess out.

 

[Baines' left foot]

Just to pick up on this.

The squad 3 years ago was good yes. But look at the squad and compare it 3 years on. Ours has barely changed, the teams above us have improved theirs in some way, from West ham signing payet to liverpool and Spurs improving and refining what they had. 3 years ago these players were fine, but the fact we barely improved ours in that time left them 3 years older and stuck in their ways and used to a way of doing things.

Some players at the club believe they are the team, which again was fine 3 years ago with results but once the results go and they still believe they are the team then something fundamentally has gone wrong there. They all downed tools at the same time and give them hakf a chance they will do it again. Best way to counter that is by getting rid of them and building a new everton team, where they aren't guaranteed a place no matter how bad they play.

Good point there Ash.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Is it just me, or is the prem not as good as we like to think it is? Just been looking at our form since the Norwich defeat, we've played 14, won 3, and only taken 14 pts from a possible 42 pts, that's 28 pts dropped in those 14 games, but we still lie in 7th place.

Oh Premier League is grossly overrated, you only have to look at the fact that Leicester City won it last year to see that. Outside of the usual suspects everyone is rubbish or bang average and even with the top six sides they'd get obliterated vs a quality Spanish, Italian or German side.

 

[ijjysmith]

Just to pick up on this.

The squad 3 years ago was good yes. But look at the squad and compare it 3 years on. Ours has barely changed, the teams above us have improved theirs in some way, from West ham signing payet to liverpool and Spurs improving and refining what they had. 3 years ago these players were fine, but the fact we barely improved ours in that time left them 3 years older and stuck in their ways and used to a way of doing things.

Some players at the club believe they are the team, which again was fine 3 years ago with results but once the results go and they still believe they are the team then something fundamentally has gone wrong there. They all downed tools at the same time and give them hakf a chance they will do it again. Best way to counter that is by getting rid of them and building a new everton team, where they aren't guaranteed a place no matter how bad they play.

Even then it was full of the same bottlers. We were on the verge of doing something great.

Then scored 2 own goals at Southampton and it was game over man.

 

[ijjysmith]

I'm glad Mourinho never came here (as if he was ever going to but hey).

He'd be doing no better and imagine the media shower that we'd have surrounding him.

 

[davek]

League position is a smokescreen. And in any case after another week of matches we could easily see ourselves 10th in the league, such is the congestion behind us. The lack of any method or plan beyond getting the ball back to front quickly against any other team outside the bottom 3 or 4 is there for all to see. No one can see what this feller is trying to achieve. All he's getting by on is some belief that buying different players will make the 'system' work.

And the notion that we have handed him a terrible squad that he cant possibly be expected to use is laughable. The worst of all excuses any manager can reach for or be given as a fig leaf by others. No manager outside those at City or Chelsea can be handed that luxury of buying in a new team in the short term. The challenge for almost all managers wherever they are in top flight football in Europe is to adapt and coach your system to the squad you inherit. Why on earth do we believe Koeman should be given a free pass on that? He's been completely hopeless in transforming ANY of the players he inherited into the type of players he apparently wants to have in his preferred starting XI. That is just a staggering failure of coaching by any measure.