Ronald Koeman discussion

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jceverton said:
11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.
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Martinez inherited a squad that finished 6th and took it 1 place higher. In the subsequent season his retraining and in particular his largely mediocre squad management produced a dysfunctional team that was avowedly mid -table at best. That is the challenge that Koeman is facing , to rebuild a functioning team from the wreckage he inherited.
 

davek said:
League position is a smokescreen. And in any case after another week of matches we could easily see ourselves 10th in the league, such is the congestion behind us. The lack of any method or plan beyond getting the ball back to front quickly against any other team outside the bottom 3 or 4 is there for all to see. No one can see what this feller is trying to achieve. All he's getting by on is some belief that buying different players will make the 'system' work.

And the notion that we have handed him a terrible squad that he cant possibly be expected to use is laughable. The worst of all excuses any manager can reach for or be given as a fig leaf by others. No manager outside those at City or Chelsea can be handed that luxury of buying in a new team in the short term. The challenge for almost all managers wherever they are in top flight football in Europe is to adapt and coach your system to the squad you inherit. Why on earth do we believe Koeman should be given a free pass on that? He's been completely hopeless in transforming ANY of the players he inherited into the type of players he apparently wants to have in his preferred starting XI. That is just a staggering failure of coaching by any measure.
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League position is the actual overriding POINT of competing in a league , for Gods sake.
 
jceverton said:
11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.
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No mate. Martinez underperformed because he took a team that finished 5th and turned it into one that was 13th when he was sacked, in the space of 2 years. Most of this squad is made up of players that Martinez held on to for too long, and complete dross he brought in. He is responsible for this mess of a squad, he built it.
 
To counter act and show I'm not some sort of Koeman fanboy here's a little list of stuff he does that does my head in:

- The Barry contract. And to a lesser extent the Baines one. Just what was the utter point?!
- Changing the centre backs every single game. Stop it. Just stop it. You were a centre back you loon.
- He hates Deulofeu. I won't be able to forgive him letting him leave.
- Some of his subs are truly baffling. But to be fair some have been quite good too.
- I believe there were extenuating circumstances in that we missed out on every single other forward target but he did bring Enner Valencia to the club. He's not even that bad but he just runs about. A total pointless signing.

Nah I just can't be too negative. Yet. But there's a few.
 

davek said:
League position is a smokescreen. And in any case after another week of matches we could easily see ourselves 10th in the league, such is the congestion behind us. The lack of any method or plan beyond getting the ball back to front quickly against any other team outside the bottom 3 or 4 is there for all to see. No one can see what this feller is trying to achieve. All he's getting by on is some belief that buying different players will make the 'system' work.

And the notion that we have handed him a terrible squad that he cant possibly be expected to use is laughable. The worst of all excuses any manager can reach for or be given as a fig leaf by others. No manager outside those at City or Chelsea can be handed that luxury of buying in a new team in the short term. The challenge for almost all managers wherever they are in top flight football in Europe is to adapt and coach your system to the squad you inherit. Why on earth do we believe Koeman should be given a free pass on that? He's been completely hopeless in transforming ANY of the players he inherited into the type of players he apparently wants to have in his preferred starting XI. That is just a staggering failure of coaching by any measure.
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I reckon by the seasons end we'll be 7th though and that'll be sound.

As I've said before, what does it say about Martinez's methods/plans when a fella who hasn't got any is outperforming him?
 
jceverton said:
11th only flattered us because of extremely bad management. In reality we had a squad which was good enough to be of finishing 6-7. That's why most of us wanted Martinez out, he was underperforming. Now people are saying he wasn't as the squad was only good enough to have got 11th. We can't have it both ways.
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First third of last season was actually quite promising as I remember - The spine of Stones, Barkley, and Lukaku was bang in form and I thought top 6 looked very reasonable, in spite of the fanbase having sussed Martinez out by and large. Then Tim Howard got old overnight and became a huge problem, Ross's form went properly off a cliff - he played himself into, then out of, the England side, and the team just couldn't respond to adversity. Ended up downing tools on the manager in a way I've never seen before at Goodison.
 
ijjysmith said:
To counter act and show I'm not some sort of Koeman fanboy here's a little list of stuff he does that does my head in:

- The Barry contract. And to a lesser extent the Baines one. Just what was the utter point?!
- Changing the centre backs every single game. Stop it. Just stop it. You were a centre back you loon.
- He hates Deulofeu. I won't be able to forgive him letting him leave.
- Some of his subs are truly baffling. But to be fair some have been quite good too.
- I believe there were extenuating circumstances in that we missed out on every single other forward target but he did bring Enner Valencia to the club. He's not even that bad but he just runs about. A total pointless signing.

Nah I just can't be too negative. Yet. But there's a few.
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His main positive for me is how much he winds up our fans. Ohh and his excessive use of but OK
 
davek said:
And the notion that we have handed him a terrible squad that he cant possibly be expected to use is laughable. The worst of all excuses any manager can reach for or be given as a fig leaf by others. No manager outside those at City or Chelsea can be handed that luxury of buying in a new team in the short term. The challenge for almost all managers wherever they are in top flight football in Europe is to adapt and coach your system to the squad you inherit. Why on earth do we believe Koeman should be given a free pass on that? He's been completely hopeless in transforming ANY of the players he inherited into the type of players he apparently wants to have in his preferred starting XI. That is just a staggering failure of coaching by any measure.
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We've a squad of players who were great 3-4 years ago, may be great in 3-4 years or are never going to be great at all. The squad is totally broken and unbalanced.
 
ijjysmith said:
To counter act and show I'm not some sort of Koeman fanboy here's a little list of stuff he does that does my head in:

- The Barry contract. And to a lesser extent the Baines one. Just what was the utter point?!
- Changing the centre backs every single game. Stop it. Just stop it. You were a centre back you loon.
- He hates Deulofeu. I won't be able to forgive him letting him leave.
- Some of his subs are truly baffling. But to be fair some have been quite good too.
- I believe there were extenuating circumstances in that we missed out on every single other forward target but he did bring Enner Valencia to the club. He's not even that bad but he just runs about. A total pointless signing.

Nah I just can't be too negative. Yet. But there's a few.
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He wasn't really an orthodox CB. he played more or less as a sweeper in front of a defence.
 

Duncan Disordely said:
We've a squad of players who were great 3-4 years ago, may be great in 3-4 years or are never going to be great at all. The squad is totally broken and unbalanced.
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They were unbeaten in the first five games. At that point they still had a bit of confidence left to get on the ball and play it to feet rather than hump it long. Since Koeman got his teeth into them they are now seemingly instructed to play safe at all times. That's where any imbalance comes from. These players can play. All that was required from martinez's successor was that they sort out the back four.
 
dannyboy said:
I reckon by the seasons end we'll be 7th though and that'll be sound.

As I've said before, what does it say about Martinez's methods/plans when a fella who hasn't got any is outperforming him?
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7th or 11th. It's a nothing distinction. Not in this league.
 
davek said:
Only if it's a significant position in terms of winning/qualifying.

As said, in a week's time we could be 10th. It'll mean about as much as 7th does now.
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No ,the idea of competing in a league is to finish as high as you can . It's how you are judged at the end of a season, by the position you acheive. Higher up the table you are the better team you are, the lower ,the worse. It's a simple system really.
 

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