Ronald Koeman discussion

[maccavennie]

It was a great win it has to be said. But there's a tendency here to re-write how the second half unfolded to make it seem like it was all under control even when it got back to 3-2. It wasn't. Arses were flapping and it was a top striker in top form that stepped up and ran riot in a virtuoso performance that put paid to Bourenmouth's come back rather than anything more strategic than that.

That wont happen many times, if ever, again - a lesson that needs learning.

with all due respect though Dave you've just called Lukaku a top striker but then said it won't happen many times. But that's what top strikers do, pop up when needed. and it's not like it's needed every time, City being a good point where he played well but that was a team performance.

I've just watched the game now, for 30 minutes of that 2nd half we were piss poor, 15 minutes slack because we were coasting and then 15 minutes because Howe had his set up spot on and they got the 2 goals their play deserved. Koeman changed the set up and we then coasted to a 6-3 win

If you go in the match thread you'll see no one is praising 3o minutes of that 2nd half performance. 6-3 is a superb result, they didn't bottle it, big players just raised their game ( I'm adding Joel into that as well because he made a couple of superb saves at 3-2 ) and we won. Great for Lukaku, great for the side, great for Koeman, great for me and I'm sure great for you too mate because an Everton win is best for all concerned

 

[jinkyali]

By the logic of cost to potential value surely the best player has been Coleman.

Very true. In fact essentially doubling our money would not be that great using such logic when you see Lescott go for six times his purchase price, Stones 13 times his purchase price.

Doesnt fit the agenda tho eh?

 

[jinkyali]

with all due respect though Dave you've just called Lukaku a top striker but then said it won't happen many times. But that's what top strikers do, pop up when needed. and it's not like it's needed every time, City being a good point where he played well but that was a team performance.

I've just watched the game now, for 30 minutes of that 2nd half we were piss poor, 15 minutes slack because we were coasting and then 15 minutes because Howe had his set up spot on and they got the 2 goals their play deserved. Koeman changed the set up and we then coasted to a 6-3 win

If you go in the match thread you'll see no one is praising 3o minutes of that 2nd half performance. 6-3 is a superb result, they didn't bottle it, big players just raised their game ( I'm adding Joel into that as well because he made a couple of superb saves at 3-2 ) and we won. Great for Lukaku, great for the side, great for Koeman, great for me and I'm sure great for you too mate because an Everton win is best for all concerned

This.

We didnt get out of gear till we had to.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Very true. In fact essentially doubling our money would not be that great using such logic when you see Lescott go for six times his purchase price, Stones 13 times his purchase price.

Doesnt fit the agenda tho eh?

Or stones??

 

[Hickson9]

It was a great win it has to be said. But there's a tendency here to re-write how the second half unfolded to make it seem like it was all under control even when it got back to 3-2. It wasn't. Arses were flapping and it was a top striker in top form that stepped up and ran riot in a virtuoso performance that put paid to Bourenmouth's come back rather than anything more strategic than that.

That wont happen many times, if ever, again - a lesson that needs learning.

I thought it was the subs and change in formation, down to Koeman.

 

[maccavennie]

This.

We didnt get out of gear till we had to.

I know it sounds ridiculous but I don't think we even had to get out of 3rd in the first half. A lot of that 1st half was a team brimming with belief and a lot of off the cuff one two football, just natural football offensively and disciplined defensively.

Every win is a great result imo but today was a fantastic results for many reasons. Let's hope for of the same ( goals for! ) next week.

 

[davek]

By the logic of cost to potential value surely the best player has been Coleman.

No. Goals scored are a premium in this league. He is almost literally worth his weight in gold, Lukaku...strike that, he is easily worth his weight in gold.

 

[davek]

I'm glad that we didn't crumble and give a lead away against Bournemouth like we did last year. It had the potential to be 3-3, like last year, but we won 6-3. Its a mark, not only of our progress, but a belief among the players, and Koeman, wanting not only to win, but to entertain fans and neutrals alike.

...and it'll be worthless if we stay in the same position we are in now.

 

[Woolly Blue]

As I argued a few weeks back: the pressure is off. Our players play better and with freedom without that pressure?

That's true of almost all players though. Look at teams who are mathematically relegated ( or all but ) for example and see how they perform differently when the pressure's off. Even the best teams play better when they're 2-0 up with 20 minutes to play.

Mind you, it's a valid criticism which has been made at Moyes' teams and has carried on since and they've been labelled "bottlers". In reality, it's not so much that they've been bottlers, it's more they've been unable to overachieve for two or three games when it really matters ( in cup competitions ).

But Moyes has gone. Martinez came in and, for all his faults, his positivity initially at least, started to change the psyche in the squad. On the surface, Koeman is more pragmatic, but underneath, he's a winner.

Look at the starting eleven today :-

Robles - Martinez man

Coleman - Moyes, but his mentality is spot on

Baines - Moyes, I love him to bits, but probably the weak link mentally

Williams - Koeman signing. Not tarred by the Moyes brush

Funes Mori - Martinez man

McCarthy - Martinez signing

Barry - proven winner with City - Martinez signing

Morgan - Koeman signing. Not been here long but he doesn't seem lacking in self belief

Barkley - Hardly a Moyes man. Brought through very successfully, and it looks like Koeman is toughening him up and hopefully finishing the job. Some doubts mentally though

Lookman - Koeman signing and walked into the first eleven without blinking

Lukaku - Martinez man, I think he'll be fine under pressure

Subs

Mirallas - Moyes signing, but the opposite of bottling in that he tends to show up in the bigger games

Davies - Brought through fully this season by Koeman, but Martinez will have had some influence on him. Has the arrogance of youth on his side which will likely help when the pressure's on.

Holgate - Martinez signing, brought through by Koeman. Unlikely to be affected by the "Plucky Old Everton" attitude from the Moyes era.

Plainly the proof is in the ( pulling of the ) pudding, but mentally, I suspect we've moved on from the Moyes era and both Koeman and Martinez deserve some credit for that.

 

[davek]

with all due respect though Dave you've just called Lukaku a top striker but then said it won't happen many times. But that's what top strikers do, pop up when needed. and it's not like it's needed every time, City being a good point where he played well but that was a team performance.

I've just watched the game now, for 30 minutes of that 2nd half we were piss poor, 15 minutes slack because we were coasting and then 15 minutes because Howe had his set up spot on and they got the 2 goals their play deserved. Koeman changed the set up and we then coasted to a 6-3 win

If you go in the match thread you'll see no one is praising 3o minutes of that 2nd half performance. 6-3 is a superb result, they didn't bottle it, big players just raised their game ( I'm adding Joel into that as well because he made a couple of superb saves at 3-2 ) and we won. Great for Lukaku, great for the side, great for Koeman, great for me and I'm sure great for you too mate because an Everton win is best for all concerned

That was a freak game. They happen in a season. Momentum shifts like that aren't caused by a manager on the line, they are caused by a player on the pitch digging in and coming up with something special. Thats what happened.

The germane point is that we have players with poor concentration who only got themselves in an apparently unassailable position in the first place because they are under zero pressure now with not much to play for. But when it got tight they revered to type. Lukaku really is the difference here. If/when Everton lose him this summer it is going to rock the club.

 

[davek]

That's true of almost all players though. Look at teams who are mathematically relegated ( or all but ) for example and see how they perform differently when the pressure's off. Even the best teams play better when they're 2-0 up with 20 minutes to play.

Mind you, it's a valid criticism which has been made at Moyes' teams and has carried on since and they've been labelled "bottlers". In reality, it's not so much that they've been bottlers, it's more they've been unable to overachieve for two or three games when it really matters ( in cup competitions ).

But Moyes has gone. Martinez came in and, for all his faults, his positivity initially at least, started to change the psyche in the squad. On the surface, Koeman is more pragmatic, but underneath, he's a winner.

Look at the starting eleven today :-

Robles - Martinez man

Coleman - Moyes, but his mentality is spot on

Baines - Moyes, I love him to bits, but probably the weak link mentally

Williams - Koeman signing. Not tarred by the Moyes brush

Funes Mori - Martinez man

McCarthy - Martinez signing

Barry - proven winner with City - Martinez signing

Morgan - Koeman signing. Not been here long but he doesn't seem lacking in self belief

Barkley - Hardly a Moyes man. Brought through very successfully, and it looks like Koeman is toughening him up and hopefully finishing the job. Some doubts mentally though

Lookman - Koeman signing and walked into the first eleven without blinking

Lukaku - Martinez man, I think he'll be fine under pressure

Subs

Mirallas - Moyes signing, but the opposite of bottling in that he tends to show up in the bigger games

Davies - Brought through fully this season by Koeman, but Martinez will have had some influence on him. Has the arrogance of youth on his side which will likely help when the pressure's on.

Holgate - Martinez signing, brought through by Koeman. Unlikely to be affected by the "Plucky Old Everton" attitude from the Moyes era.

Plainly the proof is in the ( pulling of the ) pudding, but mentally, I suspect we've moved on from the Moyes era and both Koeman and Martinez deserve some credit for that.

That's a great post. I do think there are those gradations you highlight.

Mind you, I do keep on coming back to the Lukaku factor. For my money he is the difference this season. Just as his goals got us out of the brown stuff last season (though they dried up toward the end), so are his goals this season the difference between a team mid-table and one knocking on the door of a EL place.

If we lose this feller we will struggle badly next season.

 

[jinkyali]

He's been here 4 seasons mate. No one came in last summer when it was expected. Why d'you think we're inevitably going to lose him now?

Almost three months to the day.

Mods - please put us out of our misery.

 

[maccavennie]

That was a freak game. They happen in a season. Momentum shifts like that aren't caused by a manager on the line, they are caused by a player on the pitch digging in and coming up with something special. Thats what happened.

The germane point is that we have players with poor concentration who only got themselves in an apparently unassailable position in the first place because they are under zero pressure now with not much to play for. But when it got tight they revered to type. Lukaku really is the difference here. If/when Everton lose him this summer it is going to rock the club.

but that would be the same for any club Dave. Top player leaves, club struggles to replace that. That's not exclusive to us, that's not our fault. In fact it's our fault that we were so abymsal for 2 seasons and a stint this season between September to early December that we will rue being so crap for 2 seasons and a bit where if we had pushed on we would have had a slotter in the ranks whilst hitting CL qualification.

Only fault with the above

1.the tit of a manager you love cost us 2 seasons

2. Lukaku isn't the be all and end all of Everton ( no matter how boss a slotter he is ). When he leaves, we will get someone else and we'll have a new hero just like we've always had throughout the history of Everton.

 

[Thomasc]

if we weren't saved and shown a right new future by Mosh and he hadn't of drop kicked that blert out of the club and appointed a proper manager, not a chance Lukaku would have even been here this season.

 

[davek]

Almost three months to the day.

Mods - please put us out of our misery.

Sorry, how does that contradict anything I've said about Lukaku this season. You do realise his contract is all but run its course THIS SEASON don't you?

As for your disgraceful attempt to get another poster banned, I'll leave it to others to judge you.