Ronald Koeman discussion

[davek]

OK, rather than dissect your every word and get into a bun fight.. I'll present much more positive evidence of progress in the past 9 months - most of which is down to Ronald Koeman

The Departed and Sent Out on Loan XI

Howard, Hibbert, Stones (for a great wedge), Oviedo, Geri, Pienaar, Gibson, Cleverley, Osman, McGeady, Niasse sub McAleny

Most would agree that - Stones apart (maybe) - none are missed

(obviously excludes younger players who are sent out to learn more).

That's just natural churn found at all football clubs when one manager replaces another. There's nothing special about that process.
As for none of them being missed: Deulofeu being released was a poor decision and robs us of an attacking dimension off the bench at the very least. As was releasing Galloway and Oviedo to give us no cover at all at LB.

Brought in / introduced to the first team

Stekelenburg, Holgate, Williams, Gueye, DCL, Davies (ok, had one sub appearance under Martinez), Morgan, Valencia (loan), Lookman, Bolasie

10 players.. unqualified success - Gueye, Davies, Holgate - and most of the rest already looking pretty decent. If the keeper and loanee Valencia are the least positive of that bunch (say average ish) and neither has been awful then what more can one say to prove the point? And this is without getting all the targets we wanted in the last two windows.

Koeman has removed nearly all the cack (he wants shut of Kone) and brought in a lot better set of players.. tell me also how we're not better than last season!?!

Davies and Holgate were already here and in the system. How is that being brought in? Out of the rest: Williams has not been an unqualified success; Stekelenburg has as many errors in him as Man City type performances and is never a secure #1...which is why Robles has the jersey; Schneiderlin is too early to tell in an Everton shirt; Lookman is also too early to call; Bolaisie looks to be a waste of £27M. Gueye is the one and only big and unqualified success.

The greatest asset Koeman has is Romelu Lukaku, a man he inherited and who's season form so far is the biggest reason we are 7th.

 

[Jebus_lives]

To be fair Dave, Conte has achieved nothing so far either in his time at Chelsea. Season isn't over yet so it is hard to say Koeman isn't doing a good job when the same measure can be made of Conte who will probably be a title winning manager in May.

Plenty of managers an players achieve nothing in their career. Doesn't make them poor or sub standard. The argument that seems to be put forward is 'x player hasn't won anything therefore they are crap... But if they leave a club that wins nothing they are a traitor or they cannot be considered a success until they've won something which makes absolutely no sense in a team sport. And where things have been won, which would be considered achievement they are batted back as insignificant to fit whatever changing goalpost someone wants to make. 'oh the Dutch league?? .. It's like the championship... The German league?? Who do they have Bayern Munich?? Who else?? Spain...It's no real test rolling over Getafe.
And repeat....

 

[davek]

To be fair Dave, Conte has achieved nothing so far either in his time at Chelsea. Season isn't over yet so it is hard to say Koeman isn't doing a good job when the same measure can be made of Conte who will probably be a title winning manager in May.

We can take it as a given that Koeman wont be doing anything greater than 6th. That's not exactly an appropriate comparison with Conte - even allowing for their greater resources over Everton's.

6th/7th will be an encouraging start...no more than that.

 

[Jebus_lives]

That's just natural churn found at all football clubs when one manager replaces another. There's nothing special about that process.
As for none of them being missed: Deulofeu being released was a poor decision and robs us of an attacking dimension off the bench at the very least. As was releasing Galloway and Oviedo to give us no cover at all at LB.



Davies and Holgate were already here and in the system. How is that being brought in? Out of the rest: Williams has not been an unqualified success; Stekelenburg has as many errors in him as Man City type performances and is never a secure #1...which is why Robles has the jersey; Schneiderlin is too early to tell in an Everton shirt; Lookman is also too early to call; Bolaisie looks to be a waste of £27M. Gueye is the one and only big and unqualified success.

The greatest asset Koeman has is Romelu Lukaku, a man he inherited and who's season form so far is the biggest reason we are 7th.

He didn't really ask for a breakdown of who you thought was good or not... He asked if we were better than last season. If your answer is 'Lukaku is better than last season' why? What has marked the improvement?

 

[ToffeeDan]

Anyway I for one will not be demanding Paul Nuttall take over from Ronald.

 

[Kenshin]

We can take it as a given that Koeman wont be doing anything greater than 6th. That's not exactly an appropriate comparison with Conte - even allowing for their greater resources over Everton's.

6th/7th will be an encouraging start...no more than that.

I agree about finishing there is a good start to things here under Koeman and i think overall the general perception right now is less of an achieving mid frame and more of a rebuilding one. But for a manager to add at leasr 4-5 league places on the last 2 seasons, possibly finish in europe and strip up to 14 players out of a squad who are not good enough then that is a success to me. So many players were not good enough i am sure you will agree and it is nice to see so many of them being moved out of the club so efficiently is a positive sign of the direction we are going in. The integration of putting young players through the under 23s before using them in the match squad is a positive, and could well give us 6-7 players in the first team in 5 years time that way. I can see us with so many potential positives if we can get it all right and we have achieved this by essentially only spending small amounts of money.

This season was never about 'success' to anyone and one year of not winning a trophy can be forgiven for Koeman considering the previous 22 years without one i believe. Creating a system in place with the youth and the first team and integrating the ground work of that this season is a success, and it is working. the young lads are winning their league and we have had at least one of those step up into the first team off the back of it, not all of them will make it here but feeding young lads through there will only be great for the future.

Which all in all makes this first season under Koeman potentially a positive one, with or without a trophy. That is what i believe though.

 

[Kenshin]

Plenty of managers an players achieve nothing in their career. Doesn't make them poor or sub standard. The argument that seems to be put forward is 'x player hasn't won anything therefore they are crap... But if they leave a club that wins nothing they are a traitor or they cannot be considered a success until they've won something which makes absolutely no sense in a team sport. And where things have been won, which would be considered achievement they are batted back as insignificant to fit whatever changing goalpost someone wants to make. 'oh the Dutch league?? .. It's like the championship... The German league?? Who do they have Bayern Munich?? Who else?? Spain...It's no real test rolling over Getafe.
And repeat....

I agree, it is like the Messi Argument in a nutshell, he isn't deemed the best ever by some because he has never won the wold cup, even though you can clearly see by watching him he is far beyond even the likes of Maradona in terms of talent and ability.

 

[jinkyali]

This still going on?

 

[jinkyali]

We have the fourth best defensive record in the league under Koeman so far this season.So give the man credit where it's due Davek.Koeman has sorted out our defence pretty emphatically imo.

You obviously missed one of the previous arguments on here between Davek and the forum.

Apparently Koeman hasnt improved the defence all that much as we play a different formation and were not supposed to compare defensive records due to the differing formation being deployed...

 

[degsy]

We can take it as a given that Koeman wont be doing anything greater than 6th. That's not exactly an appropriate comparison with Conte - even allowing for their greater resources over Everton's.

6th/7th will be an encouraging start...no more than that.

Just in time davek realises he's painting himself in a corner for the 2nd manager in succession and blinks
cue faux puzzled 'what's he on about' reply while blithely sailing on slightly different tack, thinking ' I side stepped that neatly without looking (too) daft.'

 

[Jebus_lives]

I agree, it is like the Messi Argument in a nutshell, he isn't deemed the best ever by some because he has never won the wold cup, even though you can clearly see by watching him he is far beyond even the likes of Maradona in terms of talent and ability.

I'd have Guivarc'h or Diomede any day of the week. Proven winners! Top top talents.

 

[squonk]

So using the word 'afraid' is Ron's latest faux pas. Every word, every utterance seized upon and dissected for underlying negative meanings.

Ronnie hates the youth even though every shred of evidence proves he doesn't.

If we get 7th it won't be good enough.
If we get 6th it won't be good enough.
If we get 5th...etc.
If we get top 4 it won't be good enough because it was the wrong style of football.
If we won the damn league it wouldn't have been achieved in the correct manner.

You may as well bang your heads against the wall than argue with this spammer.

 

[Prevenger17]

So using the word 'afraid' is Ron's latest faux pas. Every word, every utterance seized upon and dissected for underlying negative meanings.

Ronnie hates the youth even though every shred of evidence proves he doesn't.

If we get 7th it won't be good enough.
If we get 6th it won't be good enough.
If we get 5th...etc.
If we get top 4 it won't be good enough because it was the wrong style of football.
If we won the damn league it wouldn't have been achieved in the correct manner.

You may as well bang your heads against the wall than argue with this spammer.

Bend the knee

 

[Goat]

...

Thanks vault, but ive never hid from the fact they I didnt want Koeman.

 

[davek]

He didn't really ask for a breakdown of who you thought was good or not... He asked if we were better than last season. If your answer is 'Lukaku is better than last season' why? What has marked the improvement?

He didn't. He gave a list of what he believed to be successful transitions from one regime to another and it was shaky...which i argued it to be. And the fact that Lukaku is essential as a starter for us to get anything from a game is a big problem that Koeman has not begun to address. If he leaves this summer what will we do? Who will we rely on? How is a good season even possible?

We are in attacking terms a one player club pretty much. That's something he should have addressed with the £80M he's spent so far.