Ronald Koeman discussion

[BigDunc'sFod]

Moyes used to be criticised for inactivity the other way. We can't have it both ways.

Actually for what we'e paying and RK's "calibre" we absolutely can and should expect to have it both ways.

Starting with the wrong team forces you into subs just to get where you needed to be at the start and limits your ability to change things up if afterwards someone is just having a bad game (as opposed to playing in the wrong system), gets injured, or you need to play more attacking/tight because of a defecit/lead.

These levels of changes shouldn't be necessary in the first half, and while I welcome conviction on a rare occasion where it is needed, that should be once or twice a season.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Actually for what we'e paying and RK's "calibre" we absolutely can and should expect to have it both ways.

Starting with the wrong team forces you into subs just to get where you needed to be at the start and limits your ability to change things up if afterwards someone is just having a bad game (as opposed to playing in the wrong system), gets injured, or you need to play more attacking/tight because of a defecit/lead.

These levels of changes shouldn't be necessary in the first half, and while I welcome conviction on a rare occasion where it is needed, that should be once or twice a season.

Yet we blasted Moyes for only making subs on the 60 minute mark. If he was convinced the team was the right one then surely this was ok? I agree with you that he shouldn't be getting it wrong from the start so often. It's good to see him change it though, he should have been more proactive on Saturday.

 

[jackyboy]

That Bretland fella genuinely seems a nice guy having spoke to him on Twitter.

He's just one of those journalists that I find really difficult to agree with on anything. As you say, he seems to be a tad sensationalist with all that he writes.

I'm more of a 6/10 kind of chap, testified by my vanilla posting over the years on here.

Dave my friend - we agree on quite a lot, so may I pose an (open) question to you (and others)...

Before the game on Saturday, did you think he got his line up right? without the benefit of hindsight.
If not, what would you have changed?

Personally find that with Bretland, Matt Jones & Dave Downie. It's either amazing or terrible.

 

[BigDunc'sFod]

Mane's was a great run but could easily have been stopped. Coutinho was allowed to run into the area.

That's not tactics. That's players not doing the basics.

What I saw for goals 2 and 3 was Gueye (and Davies) were 2 holding midfielders overrun and as a result Coutinho was given too much space/Gana was too far away from him.

 

[davek]

This press conference today, he says he knew he had to play all those youngsters - no he didn't. He had experience available on the bench and chose not to turn to it. Then he says he doesn't want talk about individuals because it's a team game - that must be news to Barkley. He corrects the journo who said he had problems with other managers to say it was just one - when we know he criticised Klopp on Saturday and has had spats this season with Wenger and he has a long running feud with LVG.

I thought this feller was straight talking?

 

[Lanolin]

I don't think he really got it wrong from the outset on Saturday in terms of the system.

Clearly, the plan was always to go with a back three.

However, with the injuries to two players key to that (Coleman and Mori) it meant that the personnel who came in (Pennington and Holgate) had to play out of position or - rather - against a side that blatantly targeted that area of the pitch, and neither the more experienced players nor the manager then did enough to try and nullify that threat.

Kind of what @Eggs is saying.

We came out strong after half-time, and if he had made the change to a back four then I think we'd have made more chances.

That being said, their third goal - which is what killed the game - had absolutely nothing to do with tactics or system.

It was crap play from Williams and Jagielka who put Pennington and Holgate in a bad position.

The youngsters flapped, lost possession and then Robles was utterly useless as well.

Kind of like in the Spurs game, for all this talk of tactics etc, the goals really boiled down to basic errors.

Mane's was a great run but could easily have been stopped. Coutinho was allowed to run into the area.

That's not tactics. That's players not doing the basics.

At home I back us against anyone at the moment but I do think - away from home - he is maybe trying to shift to another style that the players we had available on Saturday weren't able to play.

Do you not think that the tactics can have an impact on the players not doing the basics though?

Against Spurs, for example, I would say the 1st goal was directly related to the fact that we had overloaded the midfield and the players in there weren't quite sure what their roles were. This led to Gueye 'passing on' a man who we would usually have expected him to engage with, and Barry not engaging either because he was sat too deep. Same with the 2nd. The lack of forward options meant we took an unnecessary risk trying to get the ball out quickly, and ended up losing it in a dangerous position.

I think the same sort of thing happened on Saturday. Pennington isn't used to playing in a 3 and wasn't sure whether to stick or twist at times. Holgate isn't a wing back and this led to him 'flapping' for the killer 3rd goal when in an unfamiliar situation.

When you know other players are nervous and you're not sure you can trust them, it affects everybody's game. The pass you normally play without thinking suddenly gets second guessed because you're not sure you want to put the player under pressure. The forward ball you want to play can't go because you notice the man you need hasn't made the run you expected. You start making poor decisions because you decide you need to take more responsibility, or you need to go looking for the ball.

In short, individual performances and tactical decisions go hand in hand, they're not separate.

 

[mkrudden]

This press conference today, he says he knew he had to play all those youngsters - no he didn't. He had experience available on the bench and chose not to turn to it. Then he says he doesn't want talk about individuals because it's a team game - that must be news to Barkley. He corrects the journo who said he had problems with other managers to say it was just one - when we know he criticised Klopp on Saturday and has had spats this season with Wenger and he has a long running feud with LVG.

I thought this feller was straight talking?

For the love of salted peanuts mate, take a day off lol

 

[B17BLG]

This press conference today, he says he knew he had to play all those youngsters - no he didn't. He had experience available on the bench and chose not to turn to it. Then he says he doesn't want talk about individuals because it's a team game - that must be news to Barkley. He corrects the journo who said he had problems with other managers to say it was just one - when we know he criticised Klopp on Saturday and has had spats this season with Wenger and he has a long running feud with LVG.

I thought this feller was straight talking?

So that is your proof that he did not have to play the youngsters then?

 

[Saint Domingo]

This press conference today, he says he knew he had to play all those youngsters - no he didn't. He had experience available on the bench and chose not to turn to it. Then he says he doesn't want talk about individuals because it's a team game - that must be news to Barkley. He corrects the journo who said he had problems with other managers to say it was just one - when we know he criticised Klopp on Saturday and has had spats this season with Wenger and he has a long running feud with LVG.

I thought this feller was straight talking?

Speaking of talking straight, you've been knocking him all season for not using the youth, then when he does, you say he should have gone with experience. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[BigDunc'sFod]

Speaking of talking straight, you've been knocking him all season for not using the youth, then when he does, you say he should have gone with experience. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

In fairness you use youth against dross, rather than the derby

 

[BlueToff]

What I saw for goals 2 and 3 was Gueye (and Davies) were 2 holding midfielders overrun and as a result Coutinho was given too much space/Gana was too far away from him.

For the second - yes I agree.

Gana still got there but didn't time his tackle well.

Third goal, it's purely down to messing around with the ball at the back and then a mistake from Holgate (IIRC) giving the ball away.

Coutinho picks a quick pass and then Origi is literally allowed to stroll towards goal before hitting the ball straight into an open net, as for some inexplicable reason Robles had sprinted to the penalty spot.

Again, that's not tactics. That's basics.

 

[BigDunc'sFod]

Yet we blasted Moyes for only making subs on the 60 minute mark. If he was convinced the team was the right one then surely this was ok? I agree with you that he shouldn't be getting it wrong from the start so often. It's good to see him change it though, he should have been more proactive on Saturday.

Actually we blasted Moyes for never making subs before the 60 minute mark. Sam with Martinez, who apparently at times had planned his subs and timing of subs before the game had even started.

I personally think subs should be used to adapt your lineup and tactics on the fly if needed. My issue with RK isn't that he does early subs/changes, it is the frequency of these being needed very early, which could be many reasons: his scouting is crap, he's outwitted by the opposition manager, a player is having an unexpectedly poor game and the risk of leaving them on can't be taken or he's looking to exploit a surprising weakness in the opposition.

 

[BlueToff]

Do you not think that the tactics can have an impact on the players not doing the basics though?

Against Spurs, for example, I would say the 1st goal was directly related to the fact that we had overloaded the midfield and the players in there weren't quite sure what their roles were. This led to Gueye 'passing on' a man who we would usually have expected him to engage with, and Barry not engaging either because he was sat too deep. Same with the 2nd. The lack of forward options meant we took an unnecessary risk trying to get the ball out quickly, and ended up losing it in a dangerous position.

I think the same sort of thing happened on Saturday. Pennington isn't used to playing in a 3 and wasn't sure whether to stick or twist at times. Holgate isn't a wing back and this led to him 'flapping' for the killer 3rd goal when in an unfamiliar situation.

When you know other players are nervous and you're not sure you can trust them, it affects everybody's game. The pass you normally play without thinking suddenly gets second guessed because you're not sure you want to put the player under pressure. The forward ball you want to play can't go because you notice the man you need hasn't made the run you expected. You start making poor decisions because you decide you need to take more responsibility, or you need to go looking for the ball.

In short, individual performances and tactical decisions go hand in hand, they're not separate.

Yeh I do.

I agree.

But it's not an excuse for silly mistakes like were made for the third the other day, as an example.

I reckon they'd trained ahead of this with the idea of using a back three. Really, in hindsight, he should've scrapped that plan when the injuries hit us as they did during the internationals.

It's definitely a mix of both but I reckon people are getting too wound up about it.

It just reminds us where we're at and how far we have to go. But don't forget that we had four players out who would all have played and made a huge difference to the side.

 

[BlueToff]

Actually we blasted Moyes for never making subs before the 60 minute mark. Sam with Martinez, who apparently at times had planned his subs and timing of subs before the game had even started.

I personally think subs should be used to adapt your lineup and tactics on the fly if needed. My issue with RK isn't that he does early subs/changes, it is the frequency of these being needed very early, which could be many reasons: his scouting is crap, he's outwitted by the opposition manager, a player is having an unexpectedly poor game and the risk of leaving them on can't be taken or he's looking to exploit a surprising weakness in the opposition.

Koeman actually hasn't made many early substitutions though (that weren't enforced).

There's literally McCarthy vs WBA and then Deulofeu coming on for Ross against Sunderland.

 

[Lanolin]

Yeh I do.

I agree.

But it's not an excuse for silly mistakes like were made for the third the other day, as an example.

I reckon they'd trained ahead of this with the idea of using a back three. Really, in hindsight, he should've scrapped that plan when the injuries hit us as they did during the internationals.

It's definitely a mix of both but I reckon people are getting too wound up about it.

It just reminds us where we're at and how far we have to go. But don't forget that we had four players out who would all have played and made a huge difference to the side.

Yeah I agree.

That's why I think some of the talk of mentality etc is just getting stupid now. Anyone who saw the team we had out and thought we would win was kidding themselves massively. We quite simply lost to a better side.