Ronald Koeman discussion

[Barnfred 55]

Fully agree. Only other issue I had with Saturday was Roms lack of fight. He didn't fancy a battle with Lovern and it showed.

I agree mate, but I wanted to keep this post about RK.

Lukaku had one of those games, but in fairness, he has looked more up for it since the turn of the year. No player does it in every game. It's just a big shame he chose the derby to have his stinker.

 

[Stuartisitc1878]

Right, while I was in no way drastically impressed by Saturday's display, let's look at the facts.

We had as many attempts as Liverpool did.

We had more on target I believe.

Now, stats mean little if you don't put those chances away.

We didn't. They did.

They didn't hammer us. But at the same time we didn't play our own game - or as soon as we started getting a foothold, the defence and goalkeeper made the mistakes that led to their third, which killed the game.

Not a good display, but at the same time we actually did have the chances to get something without playing well.

I doubt Koeman was thrilled, but he's smarter than to throw a load of youngsters under the bus.

The game came down to Liverpool finding an area of weakness and exploiting it, and the team (and manager) on the whole not doing enough to prevent that from happening.

100%. We play another big game tomorrow night, how does he build those young players up for that and get them ready if he goes out to the press and slaughters the poor kids.

 

[matty1878]

100%. We play another big game tomorrow night, how does he build those young players up for that and get them ready if he goes out to the press and slaughters the poor kids.

Exactly he has to say the right things if he's still got to play these youngsters than to wreck there confidence

 

[Lanolin]

Right, while I was in no way drastically impressed by Saturday's display, let's look at the facts.

We had as many attempts as Liverpool did.

We had more on target I believe.

Now, stats mean little if you don't put those chances away.

We didn't. They did.

They didn't hammer us. But at the same time we didn't play our own game - or as soon as we started getting a foothold, the defence and goalkeeper made the mistakes that led to their third, which killed the game.

Not a good display, but at the same time we actually did have the chances to get something without playing well.

I doubt Koeman was thrilled, but he's smarter than to throw a load of youngsters under the bus.

The game came down to Liverpool finding an area of weakness and exploiting it, and the team (and manager) on the whole not doing enough to prevent that from happening.

I don't doubt you're right, but again we're going down the route of suggesting that he only has 2 options which are the polar opposite of eachother.

He didn't need to throw them under the bus, but he didn't need to say he was proud, or that we played in the way he wants either. He could have just said it was a difficult game with all the injuries, the kids equipped themselves well, and we'll go again on Tuesday.

It's not the biggest deal in the world, but I don't think it was the smartest comment to be coming out with, particularly after his posturing in the week leading up to the game.

 

[sharkey1001]

I am a big fan of Koeman, however....

Away to Chelsea, and recently against Spurs and the RS he got it tactically wrong.

4 centre midfielders against Spurs when one of their (to be fair there are several) main attacking threats comes from their full-backs and playing 5 at the back and only 2 in midfield on Saturday was so clearly wrong it was embarrassing.

Selecting Pennington in such an important position against Coutinho, in a system he is unfamiliar with, when he has no pace etc was badly wrong. Barry should have started in a 4-3-2-1 formation and packed the midfield in the centre.

No harm to Calvert-Lewin or Pennington but they have shown absolutely nothing in the (albeit little) time they have played to suggest they should be starting a game at Anfield.

 

[davek]

Couple of things from the weekend now the dust has settled a bit.

Koeman was, to a large degree, restricted in his selection by injuries. I wanted him to start with a back 3 which he did. I also wanted him to prioritise young legs over experience, and he did this too. I wanted him to learn something from the Spurs game and the team selection showed to me that he has done. So I haven't got too many arguments with the manager on that score.

There were a couple of starters that did surprise me. Pennington is not long back from a long term injury, has not played any senior football this season, and, to the best of my knowledge, has never played in a back 3. I personally would have gone with Holgate in the back 3 and possibly Kenny at RWB. Still a risk as you're swapping one inexperienced defender for another one, but I just felt that Holgate looks comfortable in a back 3 and should have started there. I also would have started with Kev over DCL. Kev is one of the few Everton players who always seems up for the derby and, having not started him, I also thought he should have brought him on a lot earlier than he did.

Overall, not the performance we wanted by any means and none of our key players turned up. But I thought it was an improvement on the Spurs game and a massive improvement on the corresponding fixture last season.

The other Koeman talking point was his post match comments defending the team performance. Given that he has criticised the team frequently following much better performances, I can only think that he didn't want to go over the top on what was essentially a very young and inexperienced team. I can't really fault him for this if I'm honest.

Right, while I was in no way drastically impressed by Saturday's display, let's look at the facts.

We had as many attempts as Liverpool did.

We had more on target I believe.

Now, stats mean little if you don't put those chances away.

We didn't. They did.

They didn't hammer us. But at the same time we didn't play our own game - or as soon as we started getting a foothold, the defence and goalkeeper made the mistakes that led to their third, which killed the game.

Not a good display, but at the same time we actually did have the chances to get something without playing well.

I doubt Koeman was thrilled, but he's smarter than to throw a load of youngsters under the bus.

The game came down to Liverpool finding an area of weakness and exploiting it, and the team (and manager) on the whole not doing enough to prevent that from happening.

I am a big fan of Koeman, however....

Away to Chelsea, and recently against Spurs and the RS he got it tactically wrong.

4 centre midfielders against Spurs when one of their (to be fair there are several) main attacking threats comes from their full-backs and playing 5 at the back and only 2 in midfield on Saturday was so clearly wrong it was embarrassing.

Selecting Pennington in such an important position against Coutinho, in a system he is unfamiliar with, when he has no pace etc was badly wrong. Barry should have started in a 4-3-2-1 formation and packed the midfield in the centre.

No harm to Calvert-Lewin or Pennington but they have shown absolutely nothing in the (albeit little) time they have played to suggest they should be starting a game at Anfield.

He's faced top class managers and tried to second guess them. He over thought those games and tried to outmanoeuvre his opposite number, with disastrous consequences. Compare that with the City game where Everton were at home and were set up to respect the opposition using the new found emphasis on high energy levels, give City the ball, soak up the pressure then hit them hard on the break.

That tells me we are a hard working outfit that cant yet set up in a more expansive way against clubs above us. Koeman had to have picked up on those distinctions, surely?

Tactically he dropped a massive bollock there on Saturday.

 

[BigDunc'sFod]

He's faced top class managers and tried to second guess them. He over thought those games and tried to outmanoeuvre his opposite number, with disastrous consequences. Compare that with the City game where Everton were at home and were set up to respect the opposition using the new found emphasis on high energy levels, give City the ball, soak up the pressure then hit them hard on the break.

That tells me we are a hard working outfit that cant yet set up in a more expansive way against clubs above us. Koeman had to have picked up on those distinctions, surely?

Tactically he dropped a massive bollock there on Saturday.

It is a common thing for Koeman - trying to guess what the best thing to do is and then having to sub/change formation after a portion of the first half makes it evident that his lineup and/or tactics were wrong

People give him credit for the quick changes normally, I've always been worried about him getting it wrong in the first place

 

[Eggs]

He's faced top class managers and tried to second guess them. He over thought those games and tried to outmanoeuvre his opposite number, with disastrous consequences. Compare that with the City game where Everton were at home and were set up to respect the opposition using the new found emphasis on high energy levels, give City the ball, soak up the pressure then hit them hard on the break.

That tells me we are a hard working outfit that cant yet set up in a more expansive way against clubs above us. Koeman had to have picked up on those distinctions, surely?

Tactically he dropped a massive bollock there on Saturday.

...I agree about Saturday but my bigger concern is that he didn't rectify the obvious tactical mistake when we were still in the game.

 

[davek]

It is a common thing for Koeman - trying to guess what the best thing to do is and then having to sub/change formation after a portion of the first half makes it evident that his lineup and/or tactics were wrong

People give him credit for the quick changes normally, I've always been worried about him getting it wrong in the first place

It's a good point. The WBA reshuffle after about 15 minutes was seen after victory as decisive, but it could be read the other way as an inability to foresee what the opposition would do.

 

[Saint Domingo]

It is a common thing for Koeman - trying to guess what the best thing to do is and then having to sub/change formation after a portion of the first half makes it evident that his lineup and/or tactics were wrong

People give him credit for the quick changes normally, I've always been worried about him getting it wrong in the first place

Moyes used to be criticised for inactivity the other way. We can't have it both ways.

 

[BlueToff]

It is a common thing for Koeman - trying to guess what the best thing to do is and then having to sub/change formation after a portion of the first half makes it evident that his lineup and/or tactics were wrong

People give him credit for the quick changes normally, I've always been worried about him getting it wrong in the first place

I don't think he really got it wrong from the outset on Saturday in terms of the system.

Clearly, the plan was always to go with a back three.

However, with the injuries to two players key to that (Coleman and Mori) it meant that the personnel who came in (Pennington and Holgate) had to play out of position or - rather - against a side that blatantly targeted that area of the pitch, and neither the more experienced players nor the manager then did enough to try and nullify that threat.

Kind of what @Eggs is saying.

We came out strong after half-time, and if he had made the change to a back four then I think we'd have made more chances.

That being said, their third goal - which is what killed the game - had absolutely nothing to do with tactics or system.

It was crap play from Williams and Jagielka who put Pennington and Holgate in a bad position.

The youngsters flapped, lost possession and then Robles was utterly useless as well.

Kind of like in the Spurs game, for all this talk of tactics etc, the goals really boiled down to basic errors.

Mane's was a great run but could easily have been stopped. Coutinho was allowed to run into the area.

That's not tactics. That's players not doing the basics.

At home I back us against anyone at the moment but I do think - away from home - he is maybe trying to shift to another style that the players we had available on Saturday weren't able to play.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Coutinho was allowed to run into the area.

Coutinho was allowed the freedom of the pitch.

 

[BlueToff]

Coutinho was allowed the freedom of the pitch.

That he was.

But overall Liverpool targeted Holgate and Pennington and the guys around them didn't do enough to help out.

That's where I'd have liked to see Koeman change it.

When we were on top after half-time, we just looked like we needed that extra push.

But then, out of nothing, they have their third and we fell apart again.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

That he was.

But overall Liverpool targeted Holgate and Pennington and the guys around them didn't do enough to help out.

That's where I'd have liked to see Koeman change it.

When we were on top after half-time, we just looked like we needed that extra push.

But then, out of nothing, they have their third and we fell apart again.

Agree Toff, changes should have been made before they actually were.

 

[squonk]

2nd league defeat of the year and someone is charging around like a raging bull ranting and raving at the manager.

Even more predictable than the derby defeat itself.

Pathetic.