Sam Allardyce

[blueblue]

No the thing we seem to excel in is expecting too much for youngsters and turning on them when they don't deliver

Young players are inexperienced and therefore should not be measured against players 10 years older than them. The likes of Davies vlasic lookman to name a few should be measured on their potential not their current standing. When you look at them, give them 5 years at least to develop and improve. They will still be nowhere near their prime but chances are have made great strides in getting there and forming important parts of our team.

Not every youngster is Wayne Rooney making the first team by the age of 19. Didier drogba for example didn't get anywhere near the first division in France until he was 24, other big name players never made it anywhere until their mid 20s before they stepped their game up. Even Gareth bale for example was an average left back at 19/20.

Point is, we absolutely should get rid of a manager who freezes out young players with potential because we want them achieving their potential here, not elsewhere because they didn't fit into a managers one track mind of thinking when they were still learning their trade.

But, this manager has not frozen out the youngsters. DCL and Davies are playing regularly.
We cannot play the under 23 team and expect to win. We have seen both Lookman and Vlasic in the team and seen glimpses of what they may become, but they are simply not worth a starting spot every week.

 

[windymiller]

And Manure in recent years.

And just about every Italian team.

 

[Papa Shango]

I agree, but when you look at the comparisons it still speaks volumes. Holgate was dropped for Williams, Vlasic/Lookman dropped for Bolasie coming back after a year out almost instantly, Lewen has had too much game time IMO as a striker, he doesn't look like he has the potential to be the level of striker in the future as its the basic things he is lacking.

that is where the manager comes into it i think. Yes the young players should not be playing every game at 19, they should be used in the squad/off the bench more so than anyone else. But when the manager drops players for underperforming ones for no real reason then that is where the manager causes a rift within the squad. Lookman when he was dropped was looking like one of our best players, and a real impact off the bench before he was nowhere near the team.

That's kind of wanting it both ways though. (which is understandable).

Holgate seems to be dropped for more experienced players under every manager he has played under. There is probably a reason for that. Funnily enough I think he looked his best alongside Williams. Also until recently we have been in a bit of a dogfight so I can understand going for experience (not saying I totally agree, but I get the reasoning behind it.)

Bolasie etc coming back into the team makes sense to me as these are players who you want to get back up to pace as soon as possible. Its a hard balancing act but I don't really see a rift in the squad at present.

 

[Bob Elstone]

Bolasie has been awful but capable of an assist as proven recently....

 

[Papa Shango]

Bolasie has been awful but capable of an assist as proven recently....

Bolasie enables us to play further up the pitch. Regardless of his abilities opponents just don't leave him to it as they know that he is capable of turning it on.

Having him, Walcott, Coleman and Baines all available will massively change our dynamic.

 

[billyblue80]

They will be ‘expected loses’ in Moshiri’s book though mate.

Not in my book.

 

[Kenshin]

But, this manager has not frozen out the youngsters. DCL and Davies are playing regularly.
We cannot play the under 23 team and expect to win. We have seen both Lookman and Vlasic in the team and seen glimpses of what they may become, but they are simply not worth a starting spot every week.

I said it to papa shango in a reply but its not about playing the youngsters every week no matter what but using them as part of the team. So dropping them for others for no real justification and rarely giving them a chance off the bench afterwards is, in my opinion a negative thing to do. Davies is playing and getting on which is brilliant, but lookman left because he knew he wouldn't get much of a chance. Vlasic could well leave this summer because he isnt getting a chance. These kids aren't demanding a first team spot, but at least as a sub who can come on and positively change the game.

That is where i draw the line with positive and negative treatment of them. Absolutely you are correct in saying we can't play them every week. We can't, that doesn't help them either. But lookman was looking like a real player coming off the bench and making a positive impact and instead of being rewarded with a start, he was dropped completely for bolasie half fit.

 

[billyblue80]

Big Sam is a negative influence going forward in numerous ways, pat on the back for keeping us up Sam, but you aren't good enough. P45 and a pint of gravy now naff off.

 

[Nymzee]

Mancini, Rodgers, Van Gaal, Sherwood, Villas Boas twice, Benitez, Dalglish.

All of them could argue that they'd done alright in their jobs, but all of them were sacked/all but sacked by letting their contracts run down with no attempt to keep them on.

Pretty sure they didn’t all achieve the targets set for them; CL wins, CL qualifying, league titles etc.

Allardyce’s target was avoid relegation and he did it.

You know I’m right here haha. Clubs don’t do it.

 

[Lanolin]

Pretty sure they didn’t all achieve the targets set for them; CL wins, CL qualifying, league titles etc.

Allardyce’s target was avoid relegation and he did it.

You know I’m right here haha. Clubs don’t do it.

I doubt the club's target was for us to lose 6 consecutive away games, see no improvement in style of play and get even worse at defending set pieces. Targets can be whatever you want them to be, and if you want to be successful you have to be ruthless about achieving them.

Personally i'm not sure we will sack Allardyce, but to suggest there's no business case or precedent for doing so is ridiculous. There's plenty of both, but only from ambitious clubs who will bin anyone who doesn't meet their standards. The question is, does Moshiri want us to join that group, or not?

 

[MrGrumpy]

I don't want Sam to stay but keeping those are not the reason that he should be sacked. You might as well add Besic to the list. They are young players that have potential but are miles and miles off being good enough to make a real difference to our team or to make a real mark in the premiership and to be honest I think that both seem to believe they are better than what they actually are.

The one area we as fans excel in is over estimating some young players.

You don’t win anything with kids hmmm wonder who said that

 

[MrGrumpy]

Pretty sure they didn’t all achieve the targets set for them; CL wins, CL qualifying, league titles etc.

Allardyce’s target was avoid relegation and he did it.

You know I’m right here haha. Clubs don’t do it.

He’s gonna go and here why

•2 home games in a row 0 shots.
•Didn’t we have 4 in a row of no shots.
•Failed to beat the worse team in the league(that’s only won 3 games) Home and away and probably should have lost both.
Almost failed to beat a 10 man Stoke.
•Played Williams and MS over and over even though they where costing us points.
•Refused to play a left back at left back
•Said we have the same ambition as Newcastle and West Ham. Even thought we spent more then double the amount they have combined.
• Said Tosun is the best striker in Europe we could buy, but he can’t play in the cold
•Lost 6 away games on the run conceding 16 goals. This from a man who makes us hard to beat.
•The draw with Rs was a great result but the performance was awful and embarrassing

 

[Toffeelover]

You don’t win anything with kids hmmm wonder who said that

Well it was not Howie Kendall.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Pretty sure they didn’t all achieve the targets set for them; CL wins, CL qualifying, league titles etc.

Allardyce’s target was avoid relegation and he did it.

You know I’m right here haha. Clubs don’t do it.

Raniri(spelling) won the league got sacked within 2 months.
Rafael won the Europa league with Chelsea, got sacked

 

[Abraders]

But, this manager has not frozen out the youngsters. DCL and Davies are playing regularly.
We cannot play the under 23 team and expect to win. We have seen both Lookman and Vlasic in the team and seen glimpses of what they may become, but they are simply not worth a starting spot every week.

Kenny played a lot too, as has Holgate.

Vlasic and Lookman have been totally anonymous/bad when played (albeit rarely). Shown glimpses, but absolutely not merited to start every week as you've said