Sam Allardyce

[bluestevon]

I agree that we've played some decent football at times - especially in the last 2 games, but certainly in the away games under Sam there's been a tendency to go long.

I would love to know how many balls Pickford has kicked directly out of play in the last 5 games... I remember specifically 3 in a row in the Anfield game where he booted it up the pitch and out of play only for the ball to get returned to him almost immediately for him to repeat the process. All happened in the space of about 3-4 minutes and very frustrating to watch.

Not to mention under any remote pressure all of the back 4 now lump it as long as they can do now, it's painfully obvious that has come from instructions and training ground work.

 

[MickA]

I agree that we've played some decent football at times - especially in the last 2 games, but certainly in the away games under Sam there's been a tendency to go long.

I would love to know how many balls Pickford has kicked directly out of play in the last 5 games... I remember specifically 3 in a row in the Anfield game where he booted it up the pitch and out of play only for the ball to get returned to him almost immediately for him to repeat the process. All happened in the space of about 3-4 minutes and very frustrating to watch.

40 long balls from Pickford in the derby, 16 were accurate.

Overall we played 204 passes, 73 long.

 

[bluestevon]

See this is what I can't understand. We may have polar opinions of the man but how can you possibly have watched the games under him and not noticed the aimless punts? It's just bizarre.

It is possible to support the man and accept his methods, nobody will mind!

IF you support the man IMO you have to support his methods, otherwise it's delusion, the two are inescapably linked, it'd be like the deluded United fans who insisted that Mourinho would change when he became manager as he would realise they demand they play the 'United way', cue two years later - how exactly are United playing again???

 

[bluestevon]

40 long balls from Pickford in the derby, 16 were accurate.

Overall we played 204 passes, 73 long.

It's a philosophy which believes giving the ball away as far away from your own goal is no worse than having possession of it as it will take the opposition time to to regain that ground etc, rinse repeat and it kills the clock and the opponents momentum if done right.

At a certain level it is very effective but like most systems it has a ceiling which a club will effectively plateau at using those methods, which is why every proponent of it in this league has effectively levelled out below 6th (even before the 'big 6' days)

 

[jazzy]

I'm not complaining about Allardyce being here short term to the season's end. The owner panicked and got him in, Allardyce didn't make the decision to hire himself and I expect him to do the job he was hired to do competently - and he's had a good start in that respect.

I just dont want him and his brand of football / typical player recruitment here beyond the season we're now seeing out.

This absolutely sums up my attitude to BS.

Sadly it became imperative to intervene and get a replacement for the temporary replacement and no one can deny the improvement in defending and results.

However the quality of football is not great ( which is understandable given the loss of confidence ) and with BS track record there is no prospect of it improving.

 

[Khalekan]

Not really Khal, the stats show exactly that we have been going longer and we have been losing possession more with going longer.

Stats from about 20+ years of him in management show that it's not an aberration - it's what he prefers and drills into players to do as well. Seen lots of people shout that his Bolton side played some 'lovely football', my abiding memory from Bolton was them pumping long balls constantly to Kevin Davies in the channel or directly up top.

At West Ham to Carroll, at Palace to Benteke, and at Newcastle my biggest memory of the way they played was throwing long balls up top and hope that Nolan could capitalise on any lose balls from that.

The key word is "aimless" long balls, Stevon.

I do not regard thumping the ball out of the penalty box when danger threatens as being aimless.

Been there with Bobby....too many heart in the mouth moments when they started short passing in our own box

I for one am more than happy to see the lines cleared more quickly.

Now, I am not a great stats man but I will hazard a guess that these stats you mention, based over his four league games presumably, are skewed greatly by the backs to the wall performance at The Pit where Pickford in particular was finding touch like a rugger bugger every time he had the ball in his hands

Sitting there the other night versus Swansea there were times when I was yelling for our guys to "knock it long" during the first half when I thought our build up play was tedious and the passing too slow and sideways, especially when Monsieur Schneiderlin was on the ball

I will reserve judgement until the end of January though.

One of the concerns I raised during the build up to Sam's appointment was that we don't possess the right type of player to play the sort of game Sam is generally believed to favour.

I think performances thus far have vindicated this belief as Sam has not, IMO, tried to implement full on Allardycism as we know it and the play has been more ground based and the passing more intricate than I expected.

And this is due to the different type of player he is working with right now.

But if January sees an influx of yard dogs of the Kevin Nolan and Bruno N'Gotty type then I will start to worry

 

[Khalekan]

See this is what I can't understand. We may have polar opinions of the man but how can you possibly have watched the games under him and not noticed the aimless punts? It's just bizarre.

Rightbackatcha

Because the view from the Bullens must be very different to your view as "aimless" long balls have been at a premium to the denizens of that quarter

 

[MickA]

IF you support the man IMO you have to support his methods, otherwise it's delusion, the two are inescapably linked, it'd be like the deluded United fans who insisted that Mourinho would change when he became manager as he would realise they demand they play the 'United way', cue two years later - how exactly are United playing again???

Yeah I agree, coaches fundamentally don't change their core beliefs/styles. They may adapt for a period to get results or out of a mess but on the whole you get what you ask for which is exactly what we're getting now.

It's a philosophy which believes giving the ball away as far away from your own goal is no worse than having possession of it as it will take the opposition time to to regain that ground etc, rinse repeat and it kills the clock and the opponents momentum if done right.

At a certain level it is very effective but like most systems it has a ceiling which a club will effectively plateau at using those methods, which is why every proponent of it in this league has effectively levelled out below 6th (even before the 'big 6' days)

It also answers the 'why has nobody given him a chance' question. Obviously I'm not a fan but I am genuinely intrigued to see how this will pan out. So many factors at play.

 

[Nymzee]

If he does well this season and we bin him off in the summer it's not really giving the next manager much confidence is it? "If we don't win the league you're gone".

 

[Khalekan]

40 long balls from Pickford in the derby, 16 were accurate.

Overall we played 204 passes, 73 long.

I think you are confusing "aimless" with "accurate", Mick.

I would opine that every one of those punts from Pickford was in fact aimed at either Oumar or DCL......but they were hit very badly, hence the jack of accuracy.

It is very possible to aim a ball at a specific target but to hit it rather badly and render it inaccurate

And as I said to Stevon, those derby stats are atypical and are skewing the average stats over his four EPL games in charge.

 

[Saint Domingo]

He’s actually got these surrender monkeys playing and people are complaining. If he had a top squad at his disposal then some of these complaints would be valid but this is a squad generally discussed as one of the poorest in the league. We had no fit CB of prem quality, we had no striker of prem quality, we had a slow ageing midfield completely unbalanced, and no decent fit full backs.

All of those things are still true. Allardyce however has dragged Williams Holgate Kenny and Martina up to a good standard. He’s coaxed better form out of Rooney and Siggurdson and he’s brought a bit of balance to the team. Yet some people aren’t happy because there’s s few too many long balls. You couldn’t make it up.

After the transfer window and once Bolasie Barkley Coleman and Funes Mori are fit to go with our new striker and full back, if we are still doing nothing more than punting long then these moans might be valid, but currently he has absolute dross to work with and the only reason expectations are raised is because he’s raised them.

These are still the same players that got pumped by Atalanta and Southampton and didn’t play for Koeman or Martinez. Allardyce has done well just to get this lot turning up to training and running around a bit.

 

[Milk]

Never mind the quality ... feel the points


And in any case, we don't know what SA will do once we're "safe" and he has some cash to blow. He might, just might, surprise us

 

[Khalekan]

Never mind the quality ... feel the points


And in any case, we don't know what SA will do once we're "safe" and he has some cash to blow. He might, just might, surprise us

I have to say he has surprised me already

 

[bluestevon]

Yeah I agree, coaches fundamentally don't change their core beliefs/styles. They may adapt for a period to get results or out of a mess but on the whole you get what you ask for which is exactly what we're getting now.



It also answers the 'why has nobody given him a chance' question. Obviously I'm not a fan but I am genuinely intrigued to see how this will pan out. So many factors at play.

Upcoming next 7 games will tell us a huge amount about everything mate, that will take us to mid January, contains 4 away games (West Brom, Liverpool, Spurs and Bournemouth), and two of the three home games are against United and Chelsea (other against West Brom)

Looking at it right now it would seem likely we will see the sitting back and going long often in 6 of those 7 games, January will show us the 'calibre' of player he is after - which again will reveal a lot about his intentions - and possibly ours as a club depending how he is backed.

Get prepared to see us last often on MoTD in the coming month though

 

[bluestevon]

He’s actually got these surrender monkeys playing and people are complaining. If he had a top squad at his disposal then some of these complaints would be valid but this is a squad generally discussed as one of the poorest in the league. We had no fit CB of prem quality, we had no striker of prem quality, we had a slow ageing midfield completely unbalanced, and no decent fit full backs.

All of those things are still true. Allardyce however has dragged Williams Holgate Kenny and Martina up to a good standard. He’s coaxed better form out of Rooney and Siggurdson and he’s brought a bit of balance to the team. Yet some people aren’t happy because there’s s few too many long balls. You couldn’t make it up.

After the transfer window and once Bolasie Barkley Coleman and Funes Mori are fit to go with our new striker and full back, if we are still doing nothing more than punting long then these moans might be valid, but currently he has absolute dross to work with and the only reason expectations are raised is because he’s raised them.

These are still the same players that got pumped by Atalanta and Southampton and didn’t play for Koeman or Martinez. Allardyce has done well just to get this lot turning up to training and running around a bit.

How on earth do we have a slow ageing midfield mate? we don't currently have a midfielder older than 28 on the books, Gueye is not in any world slow, neither is Vlasic, Lennon, Lookman, even Sigurdsson and Davies are not 'slow' players, they just aren't fast ones.

Dragged Kenny up to a good standard? alternatively you could say he is a good player who has now adjusted after a dozen games in the league mate, absolute bollocks trying to credit BFS with dragging him up to standard.
Holgate is finally playing his natural position - something Unsworth was robbed of the chance to do due to injury.
Williams yeah fair due he has got him playing again by going back to a backs to the walls system which suits the player (see United away last season for how it does) - Martina - nope still looks gash mate.