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2022/23 Seamus Coleman

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Drico said:
I don't quite agree. Truth be told, he played in an era when any good Everton player was easy pickings for the top clubs. That Seamus stayed is partly a testament to his loyalty, but also partly because he wasn't considered good enough for the top clubs.

I think we can admire his tenacity and courage and, at the same time, acknowledge that his technical limitations were profound enough to keep him from the top table of the game in his own era.
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That might well be the case, but that's not the criteria you seemed to be using. You were essentially saying we shouldn't praise him so much, because he's never won anything. But I'm saying the things he's being praised for have nothing to do with us not having won anything. I just don't see how the lack of trophies should downgrade our judgment of him individually, because that clearly wasn't his fault.
 
Apologies if it's already been covered, but what was the word on the injury he got, what is it and what's the recovery time?
 

If he does play he'll be on some really good drugs to get through the pain and he might ruin his knee long term, it's very commendable that he's willing to put his health on the line to try and keep us up. Theres no way he's not done some sort of cartilige or ligament damage and that takes weeks of rest and strength work to build back up.
 
CrimsonToffee said:
That might well be the case, but that's not the criteria you seemed to be using. You were essentially saying we shouldn't praise him so much, because he's never won anything. But I'm saying the things he's being praised for have nothing to do with us not having won anything. I just don't see how the lack of trophies should downgrade our judgment of him individually, because that clearly wasn't his fault.
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But he was an ever-present part of teams that won nothing. Of course he is partly responsible for that. Not wholly, but definitely part of all that. This was his level. If he had higher levels, he would have been plucked from Everton. He wasn't. The things he is being praised for are rudimentary things: courage, guts, bravery, etc. Fair play to him for those. But they are not the elevated attributes of greatness. They are to be taken for granted in the great players - and then the greats have the ability on top.

Seamus was an honourable servant. But he's way way down the list of former players we should be celebrating. At best, he can be filed next to Mike Lyons as a fine old campaigner. Nothing wrong with that. Admirable, in fact. But we've had many greater players worthy of greater celebration that those two.
 
Curtis said:
Was this one of the games your beloved Roberto managed? He was a commentator and gave a honest appraisal sorry that put a damper on your unadulterated glorification of a hack manager but anyway baines and Coleman were classy professionals on and off the pitch
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If I'd been his teammate I'd have throttled him.
 
Drico said:
But he was an ever-present part of teams that won nothing. Of course he is partly responsible for that. Not wholly, but definitely part of all that. This was his level. If he had higher levels, he would have been plucked from Everton. He wasn't. The things he is being praised for are rudimentary things: courage, guts, bravery, etc. Fair play to him for those. But they are not the elevated attributes of greatness. They are to be taken for granted in the great players - and then the greats have the ability on top.

Seamus was an honourable servant. But he's way way down the list of former players we should be celebrating. At best, he can be filed next to Mike Lyons as a fine old campaigner. Nothing wrong with that. Admirable, in fact. But we've had many greater players worthy of greater celebration that those two.
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Should be rudimentary. Clearly not so in most of today's players.

I don't think anyone was really saying that Seamus is one of our absolute greatest players of all time. But saying that there are greater players worthy of celebration is different from saying that he shouldn't be celebrated so much in the first place. Celebrate those players more, then, by all means! But praising Seamus in no way detracts from the praise of any other player. This a thread specifically about Seamus Coleman, so if he can't be celebrated here, where can he be?

I think there are two types of players that people tend to gush over: 1) Legitimately great players who are simply the best at what they're doing. 2) Players who aren't the absolute best by by god give everything they have to the club they're at for as long as they can. Both of those types of players can be heroes to people. Seamus is clearly the latter, but those sorts of heroes are needed too. If we could only celebrate individual players who had won trophies in a team sport, the list of people to care about would be woefully short for most clubs.
 

Hinchcliffe's Corner said:
If he does play he'll be on some really good drugs to get through the pain and he might ruin his knee long term, it's very commendable that he's willing to put his health on the line to try and keep us up. Theres no way he's not done some sort of cartilige or ligament damage and that takes weeks of rest and strength work to build back up.
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I get the feeling from the tweet he'll give it a go on the last day. Perhaps Wolves aswell if the situation is really grim e.g. losing the next two.
 
Drico said:
But he was an ever-present part of teams that won nothing. Of course he is partly responsible for that. Not wholly, but definitely part of all that. This was his level. If he had higher levels, he would have been plucked from Everton. He wasn't. The things he is being praised for are rudimentary things: courage, guts, bravery, etc. Fair play to him for those. But they are not the elevated attributes of greatness. They are to be taken for granted in the great players - and then the greats have the ability on top.

Seamus was an honourable servant. But he's way way down the list of former players we should be celebrating. At best, he can be filed next to Mike Lyons as a fine old campaigner. Nothing wrong with that. Admirable, in fact. But we've had many greater players worthy of greater celebration that those two.
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The Mick Lyons comparison is astute. He was a hero of so many blues without winning anything for us. And Seamus is too.

The pair of them have given everything for this club and both were excellent professionals and very decent players.

They'll be heroes of mine when that rat Sharp has been long forgotten...and Gray is another. Apparently legends but both of them were parasites on this club.
 
CrimsonToffee said:
Should be rudimentary. Clearly not so in most of today's players.

I don't think anyone was really saying that Seamus is one of our absolute greatest players of all time. But saying that there are greater players worthy of celebration is different from saying that he shouldn't be celebrated so much in the first place. Celebrate those players more, then, by all means! But praising Seamus in no way detracts from the praise of any other player. This a thread specifically about Seamus Coleman, so if he can't be celebrated here, where can he be?

I think there are two types of players that people tend to gush over: 1) Legitimately great players who are simply the best at what they're doing. 2) Players who aren't the absolute best by by god give everything they have to the club they're at for as long as they can. Both of those types of players can be heroes to people. Seamus is clearly the latter, but those sorts of heroes are needed too. If we could only celebrate individual players who had won trophies in a team sport, the list of people to care about would be woefully short for most clubs.
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I'm not saying that you shouldn't celebrate Seamus. Heck, he is the captain of my club and country. I have long admired him. What I said was we need to be careful who we, as a club, put on a pedestal when handing out jobs.

We have been so starved of genuine quality and success over the last 35 years that sections of our fanbase no longer recognise true greatness. They've very rarely seen it! My difficulty with officially eulogising Seamus is that there is a danger that doing so perpetuates the lowering of standards that has reduced this club to the brink of demotion. A club with the storied and glorious history of Everton has had many true greats to celebrate. Players who won things. We used to win things. Regularly. Now, we think Tony Hibbert worthy of inclusion on a banner.

I suppose my issue is that Everton used to have players who had guts, courage, and spirit like Seamus Coleman AND technical ability, guile, and vision. It seems to me that we have been reduced to maximising the former qualities in the stark absence of the latter. So, it's nothing personal for me with Seamus, my countryman who truly made the very most of what he had. It's just that what he had wasn't particularly worthy of Evertonian immortality when compared with who came before. In a nutshell, we don't have too many real heroes any more.
 

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