2023/24 Sean Dyche

[toffeeblue9]

I'd find it extremely easy to blame him - for the crap at home, for not winning for 3 months what equated to several very winnable game, small very much not subjective stuff like that - he's not a winner and never will be.

End of the day though, it doesn't matter which points you win and which points you lose as long as the number of them you win overall is enough

Squabbling about which games he should have won is going to be balanced out by games he's won that we wouldn't have necessarily expected (assuming the overall points tally is enough)

It isn't that I don't think our run of form is v worrying, far from it, but focusing on any one result or any series of results is kind of pointless. We aren't a good team, no matter who's in charge, so our basis for judging him has to be that he improves on recent seasons by a reasonable margin (given there's been no huge overhaul in playing staff). If he achieves that margin, the games he's won and lost to get to that position are pointless being concerned about

 

[roy vernon]

Hmmmm, feel like there's an awful lot of subjective stuff there.

At the end of the season, we will have x number of points - that needs to be an improvement on the last 2 years worth of points. By how many we should improve is open to debate, but I think we'd all agree on the fact that improvement would be required. If Dyche wins, for the sake of argument, 45 points this season, that's an improvement of 9 points on last season which equates to 25% - for a team that's been in the thick of it until the final game or two for two years, that, to me, wouldn't be a terrible return (perhaps my standards are too low, but I'd struggle to back an argument where someone says it should be much more than this). But, we've already lost 6 points and we will lose some more so we are already in the territory of not seeing a net points return much higher than last season.

Take all the subjective stuff out of it and everyone is going to have an opinion about what points return we *should* have, we can disagree on what that figure is but whatever it is, given Dyche and the team can't control any deductions, you'd have to judge them net of that figure.

For instance, controversial opinion incoming, if Dyche "won" 45 points this season, but we got two 6 point deductions and went down as a result, I'd find it hard to blame him.

Would you find it hard to blame him for not having won a league game in over three months?

 

[Gilbert..]

That's letting him off the hook, I'm afraid.

He has to work with what he has. No ifs, no buts.

It also ignores the fact that these players have scored plenty in the past - including this very season. It's in them, and it's Dyche's job to get it out.

Got to be a bit of give and take. What can he do on the training ground regarding beto putting it over the bar from 2 yards out against fulham, that would have been the winner. Have him in monday morning and heading it from 2 yards 100 times?

 

[toffeeblue9]

Would you find it hard to blame him for not having won a league game in over three months?

If he posts a points tally which is a reasonable improvement on last season, I wouldn't care particularly, because it will mean other results have balanced it out.

What I'm perfectly happy to admit though is that as this run of form continues, the chances of Dyche returning an acceptable points total become less and less and even now are looking on the slim side.

 

[blueboy72]

Don’t be ridiculous, no he won’t. He’s been a 1 in 4 centre forward his entire career, he just isn’t very good.

He’s not a world beater but he’s better than the majority of the strikers named, they’re just having decent seasons. Watkins had never beaten DCL’s best seasons till this season. And Toney did last seasons, take away pens and Toney has only got double figures once and he’s been talked about as an 80mil Centre forward. Both are also 28, I think both are better than DCL. But the pair aren’t harry kane.


As we seen with Carlo, I better manager, gets more out of DCL.

 

[DualityNSNO]

End of the day though, it doesn't matter which points you win and which points you lose as long as the number of them you win overall is enough

Squabbling about which games he should have won is going to be balanced out by games he's won that we wouldn't have necessarily expected (assuming the overall points tally is enough)

It isn't that I don't think our run of form is v worrying, far from it, but focusing on any one result or any series of results is kind of pointless. We aren't a good team, no matter who's in charge, so our basis for judging him has to be that he improves on recent seasons by a reasonable margin (given there's been no huge overhaul in playing staff). If he achieves that margin, the games he's won and lost to get to that position are pointless being concerned about

But that's the thing though, his job is to get as many points as possible, and he's barely scraping by, in a year where some of the opposition is miraculously worse than us.

I'm focusing on the form overall - dire, other than a run of four games in the course of the season so far, we've set up horribly. The Luton game is an example, there's about 5-6 more, including nearly every home game.

We're not safe yet, we can pretend we're on 31 points or however many we want but we're realistically not, so this exact same point margin you're not worried about is what's the balance between relegation and safety. We're currently not in the assured safety part of it by any stretch of the imagination, and even taking that 1 game (which for some reason you hyperfixated on, considering it's just 1 example from many?) is 3 points more which would've helped us massively. Now imagine if we'd won a few more games, or at least actively tried to and had 2 more wins this season - not even a huge margin - we'd be almost home safe.

But no, down to the wire again it is. Once again, as it was the same last year, because of our own mistakes and stubbornness in management.

 

[blueboy72]

You need to stop smelling his kecks from yesterday.

Thats not what you said, you said we have way better quality attacking players then teams down there and ive just given you the names of players with better records with less games some significantly so, then our players.

This isn't makey up bookie odds its a fact - they use XG by the way..

You need to show your work here or people will start to think your just bleating on about makey up next years bookies odds. lol

where did i say we have way better forwards than the rest of the teams down there. I will wait for you to prove it.

What I actually said is our front 4 shouldn’t have the worst open play goals return for the whole league. Slightly different, if you think we should be bottom, then no problem crack on

 

[Neiler]

where did i say we have way better forwards than the rest of the teams down there. I will wait for you to prove it.

What I actually said is our front 4 shouldn’t have the worst open play goals return for the whole league. Slightly different, if you think we should be bottom, then no problem crack on

“I don’t think many would argue we have poor forwards and a front 4 that is bottom half prem, but is it the 2nd worst in the league”

There you go, many just gave you the evidence that in actual fact we might just have some of the worst forwards in the league comparatively. QED.

As I’ve been saying all day, all roads lead back to a lack of quality.

 

[toffeeblue9]

But that's the thing though, his job is to get as many points as possible, and he's barely scraping by, in a year where some of the opposition is miraculously worse than us.

I'm focusing on the form overall - dire, other than a run of four games in the course of the season so far, we've set up horribly. The Luton game is an example, there's about 5-6 more, including nearly every home game.

We're not safe yet, we can pretend we're on 31 points or however many we want but we're realistically not, so this exact same point margin you're not worried about is what's the balance between relegation and safety. We're currently not in the assured safety part of it by any stretch of the imagination, and even taking that 1 game (which for some reason you hyperfixated on, considering it's just 1 example from many?) is 3 points more which would've helped us massively. Now imagine if we'd won a few more games, or at least actively tried to and had 2 more wins this season - not even a huge margin - we'd be almost home safe.

But no, down to the wire again it is. Once again, as it was the same last year, because of our own mistakes and stubbornness in management.

Which game am I hyperfixated on? I've literally avoided mentioning any specific game because I don't see the point in it

I'll judge him at the end of the season (because he's going nowhere before then), and if he posts an acceptable gross number of points, I'd have to accept that he's done enough to deserve another season. If he doesn't get those points, then it's hard to make an argument to the contrary.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Which game am I hyperfixated on? I've literally avoided mentioning any specific game because I don't see the point in it

I'll judge him at the end of the season (because he's going nowhere before then), and if he posts an acceptable gross number of points, I'd have to accept that he's done enough to deserve another season. If he doesn't get those points, then it's hard to make an argument to the contrary.

We deserve mediocrity and headpatting, this line of thinking absolutely solidifies us as nobodies.

 

[pfim]

I genuinely can't think of another player in the squad who has improved their performances over last year under Dyche.

Well that's not what you wrote.

 

[MikeH72]

He’s not a world beater but he’s better than the majority of the strikers named, they’re just having decent seasons. Watkins had never beaten DCL’s best seasons till this season. And Toney did last seasons, take away pens and Toney has only got double figures once and he’s been talked about as an 80mil Centre forward. Both are also 28, I think both are better than DCL. But the pair aren’t harry kane.


As we seen with Carlo, I better manager, gets more out of DCL.

Take away pens and DCL has scored about 3 open play goals since fans returned to football stadiums. A nonsense argument that doesn’t go on his favour at all.

The Covid season has very much proven to be the outlier in DCL’s career. He’s now 27, pretty much the same age as those other strikers, and his career record is 1 in 4. He’s missed a hatful of great chances this season so the “it’s the style of play’s fault” thing holds no water whatsoever.

 

[toffeeblue9]

We deserve mediocrity and headpatting, this line of thinking absolutely solidifies us as nobodies.

Again though, we probably have different expectation levels here. I don't see how we realistically expect huge improvement on the previous two years given we've not really given the manager any particularly big resources to make huge improvements. Pragmatically, the only way I can see to judge it is to remove any subjectivity and emotion from it and judge based on what he delivers in mathematical terms. I'm sick of the "unlucky" arguments re xG and everything else, so to me the only fair way you can decide if he's doing enough to stay here is to judge over a full season and see if he gets enough points overall that would be deemed enough of an improvement on last season to be happy with.

 

[pfim]

Mykolenko is one that I don't think is up for debate

I'm tempted to add McNeil and Garner here, but Garner in particular barely played before the last 12 months really

McNeil and Doucoure were better the minute Dyche arrived.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Dyche teams do not score many goals .
That is an irrefutable fact , borne out by a glance at his managerial statistics.
Calvert - Lewin is a competent PL centre forward , we have seen him scoring goals regularly for us before the arrival of Dyche.
The evidence above strongly suggests that the reason we have a low scoring rate owes more to Dyche’s style of football than to Calvert -Lewin’s abilities.