2023/24 Sean Dyche

[mahermi1]

What if you caught shagging the Secretary in the toilet is that instant dismissal?

Why, are you worried Sue ? Would think that would not go down well either, in fact I'm sure you're job would go right down the shitter. Hope that helps..

 

[Delargeinho]

View attachment 249595
Yeah, truly impossible to contend for small clubs like us, Villa, etc.

I know this is for this season but we've broken that or been close enough to break it many times too, with Moyes, but he rarely set foot over the line. Same in Europe - he's achieved success now, but are we pretending that bombing out at the first sight of post-group match stages and 1 FA cup final in a decade is "getting results"? Or is it that this is his limit and someone with better ability and management nous like Emery, who's won things just about everywhere he's been and is okay to be a slight underdog, are more suited to contend with the moneyed up teams? Is he not a product of smarter recruitment with a plan by Villa? Almost as if we can use our DoF/Scouting department and recruit accordingly?

Also Dyche is not bringing "challenging for top 5/6" consistency to the club, he's bringing the "relegation fight year on year" consistency, which is playing with fire.

It is and finanical disadvantage can be compensated by good work to a certain extent. I was actually surprised he went from a European spots challenging team in Spain to a relegation fighter in the prem from a sportive sight, financially it's another thing, Villarreal has 125m revenue, that's Burnley level, good enough to be in the top 6 in Spain.

Emery is a world class (myb with some Basque bias) and title proven manager on a European level. I'm sure he would have succeded at Arsenal with the time given like Arteta. Much respect what he has done in Villa in that short time. It will show whether they can fight for CL and overachieving the next 7-8 seasons or going back to a normal region, which is around West Ham.

The question is the price you pay for success. We spent big in the first Moshiri years hoping to get that immediate big success, but we spent in dimensions never possible or sustainable for club of our size and lost the financial humilty of the 2004-2014. We reached the ceiling in the table in this period, but I agree we missed out of that "overachievement", which is a group stage in CL or cup wins.

Brighton will be an interesting case to see. A well-run club that overachieved last season, getting into Europe over teams like Chelsea. They're doing smart transfers and not spend headlessly big with the 100m+ from transfers like Caicedo and likely Ferguson to come. It will be interesting to see, if they can keep their level, knowing where they come from and where they are or go a similiar way to Southampton. Or lose the mind to suddenly start spending.

Always been stressing that Dyche was the right appointment in 1/2023, but shouldn't be kept over 6/2025 in any circumstances as he is not a long-term solution.

Considering the whole season Dyche has done ok, I expect us to finish between 11-15 in normal circumstances and we would have been likely out of this relegation battle and finish somewhere there, despite the bad 2024 and start of the season, mainly due to a good run from mid october-mid december. I judge Dyche's work on 31 points not 25.

But saying again, I don't accept the points deduction for our underachieving run over the last 3 months and some tactical decisions. It should be considered to a certain point, as we might lose 10 points of points we would have had in a normal season, but it's too easy to put it only on that. Yeah, you know I'm hostile towards points deduction given during the season due to distortion of competition, it should be given at the start.

 

[Simon Buttle]

It is and finanical disadvantage can be compensated by good work to a certain extent. I was actually surprised he went from a European spots challenging team in Spain to a relegation fighter in the prem from a sportive sight, financially it's another thing, Villarreal has 125m revenue, that's Burnley level, good enough to be in the top 6 in Spain.

Emery is a world class (myb with some Basque bias) and title proven manager on a European level. I'm sure he would have succeded at Arsenal with the time given like Arteta. Much respect what he has done in Villa in that short time. It will show whether they can fight for CL and overachieving the next 7-8 seasons or going back to a normal region, which is around West Ham.

The question is the price you pay for success. We spent big in the first Moshiri years hoping to get that immediate big success, but we spent in dimensions never possible or sustainable for club of our size and lost the financial humilty of the 2004-2014. We reached the ceiling in the table in this period, but I agree we missed out of that "overachievement", which is a group stage in CL or cup wins.

Brighton will be an interesting case to see. A well-run club that overachieved last season, getting into Europe over teams like Chelsea. They're doing smart transfers and not spend headlessly big with the 100m+ from transfers like Caicedo and likely Ferguson to come. It will be interesting to see, if they can keep their level, knowing where they come from and where they are or go a similiar way to Southampton. Or lose the mind to suddenly start spending.

Always been stressing that Dyche was the right appointment in 1/2023, but shouldn't be kept over 6/2025 in any circumstances as he is not a long-term solution.

Considering the whole season Dyche has done ok, I expect us to finish between 11-15 in normal circumstances and we would have been likely out of this relegation battle and finish somewhere there, despite the bad 2024 and start of the season, mainly due to a good run from mid october-mid december. I judge Dyche's work on 31 points not 25.

But saying again, I don't accept the points deduction for our underachieving run over the last 3 months and some tactical decisions. It should be considered as a to a certain point, as we might lose 10 points of points we would have had in a normal season, but it's too easy to put it only on that. Yeah, you know I'm hostile towards points deduction given during the season due to distortion of competition, it should be given at the start.

Most people don't understand how the Brighton model actually works. It's purpose is to sell players and generate money for the club, but they don't mind that as they are always prepared and well ready for it. When they bring a senior (first team) player in, they also bring in an under21 player who is basically a direct replacement for the player they have just bought. The youngster get's a year of coaching, maybe then a loan somewhere then when that first team player is attracting the top 6 teams it doesn't matter as they already have a ready made replacement waiting too play. They have numerous good youngsters out on loan in the Championship at the moment who are just waiting to get a chance in the PL and even further down they have plenty of talented youngsters coming through the academy. When they buy players it's often just to top up what they have already there.

 

[Zatara]

I have a lot of respect of Dyche what he did with Burnley. To keep such a team up on this budget a couple of seasons and low needs some skill as a manager, despite getting relegated them once and about for a 2nd time.

On the other hand, Burnley kept their style over pretty much whole time and in a big European side you need more than just negating oppositions and maybe due to tactical limitations and lack of investment at Burnley the playing way didn't not progress. This probably scared off a lot of good teams. I am pretty honest I would fear Dyche's Burnley more to play against than Kompany's from what I've seen on the prem level. You knew it's a pain in the neck game against an annoying opponent and won't be beautiful. I don't have this feeling about them now.

Dyche's style needs players that play their hearts out for the club and each other, he won't find them in a top 6 club filled with primadonnas. So I see him suited for bottom half teams trying to survive in the prem or teams that are in a situation like us when he came in.

For me he widely confirmed what to expect considering his Burnley period. I see him as a solid till good manager, but not a very good or world class one. For me that shows it, when you tailor your approach depending on the players available and reaction in negative moments.

For me success is not only about winning titles, but achieve what's expected or even more with a club than possible given the circumstances, either proven one time for a longer period or with a couple of times.

It will show in the next couple of weeks, if he can change the negative trend of the last three months.

I think its almost guaranteed that he stays until his contract expires.

Of course at that time, we will have the new stadium with multiple new commercial revenue streams which should put us on a better footing.

Any new owner would surely want a statement manager and I think we may be able to bring one in as we should have a clean slate on transfers & the new attractive stadium.

 

[Zatara]

Most people don't understand how the Brighton model actually works. It's purpose is to sell players and generate money for the club, but they don't mind that as they are always prepared and well ready for it. When they bring a senior (first team) player in, they also bring in an under21 player who is basically a direct replacement for the player they have just bought. The youngster get's a year of coaching, maybe then a loan somewhere then when that first team player is attracting the top 6 teams it doesn't matter as they already have a ready made replacement waiting too play. They have numerous good youngsters out on loan in the Championship at the moment who are just waiting to get a chance in the PL and even further down they have plenty of talented youngsters coming through the academy. When they buy players it's often just to top up what they have already there.

A number of years ago I was calling for us to invest in u21s as 'backup' players to come through and push out the established players....then each summer sell some and reinvest.

It seems in theory to be a straightforward model. Thelwell hopefully is looking at that model with the youth hes trying to bring in.

At the same time though, i do feel we would need to hold onto a handful of top prospects to build the team around.

The end of next season with a new manager and signings by Thelwell hopefully making a mark...we could have some positives.

 

[Furey1878]

So we lose the next 5 games but the xG rises to 3 because we take pot shots from nowhere and have realistically 1 dangerous chance per game or less - how is that any better or an improvement?

The way xG works we'd have to have like 200 pot shots and a dangerous chance to get an xG of 3

 

[Delargeinho]

Most people don't understand how the Brighton model actually works. It's purpose is to sell players and generate money for the club, but they don't mind that as they are always prepared and well ready for it. When they bring a senior (first team) player in, they also bring in an under21 player who is basically a direct replacement for the player they have just bought. The youngster get's a year of coaching, maybe then a loan somewhere then when that first team player is attracting the top 6 teams it doesn't matter as they already have a ready made replacement waiting too play. They have numerous good youngsters out on loan in the Championship at the moment who are just waiting to get a chance in the PL and even further down they have plenty of talented youngsters coming through the academy. When they buy players it's often just to top up what they have already there.

Believe me, I spent hours of studying their philosophy and was impressed.

I struggle to express something in compact in English, as it's my 3th language. In terms of recruitment and scouting they are on a world class level and for me it's one of the most sustainable and best led club in the world.

I am sure we could establish something similiar here too with the right people on board, it will last a few years of hard work to do so and hopefully pay off in the end. Surely we cannot continue having no strategy at all.

 

[Goat]

Believe me, I spent hours of studying their philosophy and was impressed.

I struggle to express something in compact in English, as it's my 3th language. In terms of recruitment and scouting they are on a world class level and for me it's one of the most sustainable and best led club in the world.

I am sure we could establish something similiar here too with the right people on board, it will last a few years of hard work to do so and hopefully pay off in the end. Surely we cannot continue having no strategy at all.

Brightons model isn't sustainable.

It allows no room for error.

They will get relegated within 2 years.

 

[Delargeinho]

Brightons model isn't sustainable.

It allows no room for error.

They will get relegated within 2 years.

Doubt that it will be in that time, but there is the risk to go the Southampton way surely within few years.

But how would you overturn Everton to bring it into the right directions?

 

[COYBL25]

Brightons model isn't sustainable.

It allows no room for error.

They will get relegated within 2 years.

Add on the fact that it seems that selling clubs, whichever country they`re in, appear to have got wise to Brightons business model and aren`t selling unknown players cheaply to them anymore.

 

[Goat]

Doubt that it will be in that time, but there is the risk to go the Southampton way surely within few years.

But how would you overturn Everton to bring it into the right directions?

It can't be done under current and future owners.

 

[Delargeinho]

Add on the fact that it seems that selling clubs, whichever country they`re in, appear to have got wise to Brightons business model and aren`t selling unknown players

That's a good point, they will be competing with Ajax, Benfica and such clubs who have been doing that for decades and having some of the best talent academies in Europe in addition.

 

[DualityNSNO]

This is the thing - the unicorn if you will, the unflinching belief that there is someone out there "In Europe" that will grab us by the boot strap be a savant and rebuild the club, pragmatically i dont see it - if you ask who the answer is always "im not a director of football". Its unicorns stuff in my opinion. Why? We are very unattractive for any manager realistically, we can do the faux Everton/PL thing - but ultimately, any decent manager taking the next step in going to look at what job offers me the best opportunity to improve my standing in the game, they dont choose clubs, that have no money, no administration, no resources, that sell their best players and in a heap of debt and in the middle of a cluster of points deductions, with a squad that needs serious investment. Its a toxic job at the moment. I think its wishful thinking and unicorn hoping, just picking up the next big thing - which as a big Villa Boas risk anyway.

Is it? Or do we never look and approach the relative safety of the proven struggler?

Geraerts went, as Belgian coach of the year, to the even bigger even more limited than us skip fire that is Schalke and he's doing okay on the ridiculous limitations in the 2nd division, while playing good football with players who aren't even 2nd level for the most part. Good coaches will want to prove themselves and will trust a project.

- An ability to build a club to progressive success
- An ability for 100s of millions to pass through the club on said success
- An ability to keep a team in the league on limited resources
- An ability to progress the team with said limited resources and achieve Europe
- An ability to offer stability and inbed a culture of competitive mentality
- An ability to maximise the resources at hand to achieve these goals
- An ability to blanace a squad based on said limited resources.
- An ability to manage a club with a lack of governance, administration and potential adverse conditions.
- An ability to manage a club is adverse circumstances, were points you earned could be taken away by a third party.

1) Does that sound to you like a job you would like if you were a manager trying to build a career for yourself, when there are handier ones and

2) Sean Dyche is nailing that competency based interview.

The managers I mentioned plied their trade exactly in skipfire conditions themselves, or with limitations for several years, while getting their teams to midtable or higher spots and cup progress, and then going on to manage big teams. As I mentioned him already - Geraerts went to a struggling team that started much like we did - 2 wins in 7-8 games - and is currently doing okay on literally 0 money or flexibility for anything, which is genuinely worse than us.
Which is exactly what Klopp did too, but went from player to manager.
Which is how Tuchel plied his trade - struggling team in the BuLi (ironically, Klopp's old team too lol ), finished outside of relegation, went on to improve his staff by seeing what's wrong with it, improved position, finished 5th. They kept losing players and had to sell and buy cheaper ones because of the lack of money but kept finishing mid table and going on cup runs and repeating the process, after which he resigned and used his knowledge/tactics to improve in his next role and win things with a bigger team.

I do not see Dyche doing any of the improvements as he hasn't - same staff as Burnley, same play as Burnley, same results as Burnley - fighting relegation.

So what you describe in terms of a German manager, who takes a German club to midtable has relative success and achieves consistently then goes on to bigger clubs - is literally Sean Dyche and Burnley, QED.

It is literally quite far away - Dyche has brought no success other than mediocrity and winning the relegation fight, which was my point. I suppose we can use "won the championship" here too as some sort of achievement, but it's not something he's ever built upon.

I must of banged my head, and missed the fantastic opportunity we had to be miles away from relegation last season, we were shocking, how we stayed up without a Centre forward is absolutely beyond me - the manager earned serious collatoral and loyalty from me on that performance, but i think with any other manager we would be in Leicester's position now - would have gone down and be facing a PL charge in the Championship. Without question.

Must have* ffs mate! lol

You probably did - we played managerless and Mitrovicless Fulham at home, even Dyche bigged up the importance, and we came in the game too scared to play and got dispatched easily.
Palace away - 0:0, and for literally no reason starting and persisting with Holgate when he wasn't even half in it, so we had to defend for dear life against a side limping to the finish line.
Forest 2:2 - went up 1:2 and had absolutely no idea how to control a game, shat the bed and tried to park the bus, nearly lost in the end.
As a side note - we absolutely stroke luck to even get a point vs Leicester due to the importance of playing Michael Keane, who got absolutely owned by the limping Jamie Vardy. If that finished with a Foxes win we'd be in the Championship now.
Winning at least 1 of those games means we don't have to rely on results in other games at all, and it didn't have to boil down to the last game. But then it was also expected that we can't win football games.

 

[Furey1878]

I admire your energy to argue this topic with @Neiler

Personally I think him staying on with a remit to transition us into whatever is the least likely outcome

1. Most likely will be two seasons of keeping us up and boring and annoying us like he is doing now. If we somehow have money in summer 2025 and a prospect under new owners of improving the squad he will be replaced (Personally ok with this)

2. Next most likely is we are still a mess financially in summer 2025 with real squad improvement and he is still seen as a better option to keep us in the league than any gamble they might take with another (also ok with this, if hoping against hope it doesn't happen. Those more pessimistic on the finances might move this to number one)

3. He relegates us

4. The club decide they want to roll the dice and pay him off and get another manager in at any time this or next season

5. The club goes bust, ceases to exist and we all start supporting Everton AFC in the lower leagues

6. The club see something in him that he doesn't seem to have shown in all his career and stick with him through any period of recovery off the pitch and any return to actual transfer funds and plan with him for BMD and beyond

...at least I'm telling myself number one happens and in summer 2025 I can get back to dreaming of a good manager and good signings and kicking off in BMD with renewed hope

Assuming 1 happens, for me if he gets us stable and in to the top half in that time, he'll deserve a few windows were he can actually spend.

Interestingly though, in his post match interview after Bournemouth last season, he explicitly said let's get things stable and competitive and then bring a "fashionista" in. Was surprised to hear a manager speak about his own demise.

 

[Goat]

What could have been...