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Semi Finals

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MaupsGoat said:
Either way, we should be blessed we got to watch Messi and the boy CR7, I think they drove each other to the heights they reached.

Their era is nearly over, be fun watching whoever comes next.

Mmmmbob and the Cyborg look the best bet.
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I was also very lucky to be around for the Stoitchkov, Hagi, Romario, Baggio Era of the 90's as well

There's been some darn good footballers in the past 30 years
 
Martin Alvito said:
The GOAT discussion is so subjective and one's answer generally boils down to personal preference over the elements of the game one prefers (and personal biases). I take Magic in basketball - the only player in the history of the game that could win a Finals clincher playing the 5 as easily as the 1. Most people don't.

The 'best' footballer I have ever seen is Iniesta in the sense that he was half of an entire keep away strategy and could deliver the lightning, killing thrust, but the injury issues keep him out of the GOAT conversation since longevity and durability matter. The scariest player I have ever seen is Brazilian Ronaldo, but he experienced some of the same issues.

I would say that the Jules Rimet trophy would pretty much tip the Maradona/Messi debate to Messi on weight of accomplishments. Some will not agree.


The addition of 'Norwegian' before 'cyborg' would have helped a bit there, I think.
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"Greatness" is about achievement. Being the "best" is about technical superiority. For example, Gerd Müller is considered the greatest German forward of all time but Karl-Heinz Rummenigge was unquestionably a better player. Müller was the greatest goalscorer - the greatest striker - but he didn't exactly "assist". Rummenigge scored 1 in 2 for West Germany - a fantastic strike rate in the 1980s - but was also able to playmake from deep and was, actually, a superb winger with unparalleled dribbling skills. In summary, a far more complete footballer overall. Both won the Ballon d'Or - Rummenigge twice - and the European Championship and European Cup, but Müller also won the World Cup. So, Müller is considered "greater". His achievement was to score goals in quantities like nobody ever before him. Winning the World Cup at home on top of all this made him a mythical figure.

Iniesta was another superb footballer. He didn't score many goals, though, and so will always lose that comparison with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo - even though anybody with eyes would have to love the combination of intelligence, strategy, and technique that marked him out. And the game isn't simply about goalscoring, critical as it is.

Maradona is considered "greater" than Messi by some because he was, essentially, the first player to, basically, "single-handedly" win the World Cup for his country. He did similar with lowly Napoli in what was then the best league of all-time to that point. Of course, much of this is nonsense. Players like Burruchaga, Valdano, and Ruggeri were excellent players - but myths require the suspension of facts.

If Messi wins the World Cup, he will have eliminated most of the Maradona advantage in any "debate" about greatness. But, frankly, the game is different today, the laws different, the environment diametrically opposed. You cannot compare across generations. You can only be the best of your own time. Or one of them. Messi is and has always been an amazing player. Everything else is hot air and personal preference.
 
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And while I'm at it, I find the need to anoint somebody as the "best" just as tedious. I think it's disrespectful to the many great players we are lucky to witness. For me, you're either great or you're not. And a few are great. That's the club. I have always preferred Messi over Ronaldo - but even a blind man would have to acknowledge the greatness of the Portuguese. Look at Modric yesterday. Another truly great player.
 
Drico said:
"Greatness" is about achievement. Being the "best" is about technical superiority. For example, Gerd Müller is considered the greatest German forward of all time but Karl-Heinz Rummenigge was unquestionably a better player. Müller was the greatest goalscorer - the greatest striker - but he didn't exactly "assist". Rummenigge scored 1 in 2 for West Germany - a fantastic strike rate in the 1980s - but was also able to playmake from deep and was, actually, a superb winger with unparalleled dribbling skills. In summary, a far more complete footballer overall. Both won the Ballon d'Or - Rummenigge twice - and the European Championship and European Cup, but Müller also won the World Cup. So, Müller is considered "greater". His achievement was to score goals in quantities like nobody ever before him. Winning the World Cup at home on top of all this made him a mythical figure.

Iniesta was another superb footballer. He didn't score many goals, though, and so will always lose that comparison with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo - even though anybody with eyes would have to love the combination of intelligence, strategy, and technique that marked him out. And the game isn't simply about goalscoring, critical as it is.

Maradona is considered "greater" than Messi by some because he was, essentially, the first player to, basically, "single-handedly" win the World Cup for his country. He did similar with lowly Napoli in what was then the best league of all-time to that point. Of course, much of this is nonsense. Players like Burruchaga, Valdano, and Ruggeri were excellent players - but myths require the suspension of facts.

If Messi wins the World Cup, he will have eliminated most of the Maradona advantage in any "debate" about greatness. But, frankly, the game is different today, the laws different, the environment diametrically opposed. You cannot compare across generations. You can only be the best of your own time. Or one of them. Messi is and has always been an amazing player. Everything else is hot air and personal preference.
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Obviously both Messi and Maradona are/ were fantastic players but better than Pele?
Having been fortunate enough to have seen all 3 Pele edges it for me , but as you rightly say it's all about opinions
I think Messi just shades Maradonna but again just my opinion, perhaps coloured by his conduct compared to Diego.
Ronaldo , the Portuguese one , great goalscorer but not in this calibre.
However Beckenbeur , , Cryuff and Platini in a very close 2nd grouping
 

MikeH72 said:
All of that is just hypothetical crap though. You can’t just say no one can possibly ever be as good as Maradona because they didn’t have to play on cabbage patch pitches against yard dogs that ate Big Macs at half time. Messi can’t help the fact he wasn’t born in the 60s. He’s proven himself the greatest of his era and has every right to at least be compared to Maradona, regardless of who you personally think was better.
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If he wins a WC final he can be compared on achievement. But raw talent?

No.

I've seen Cruyff, Maradona and Messi in my time.

In this order I'd rate them

1/ Maradona
2/ Cruyff
3/ Messi

Maradona for a complete player
Cruyff for his ability and tactical nous on the pitch as well as off it
Messi for his balance, control and dribbling abilty

That's a hierarchy that wont be affected by any result on Sunday.
 
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4 Eyes Better Than 2 said:
It doesn’t need spelling out

Not sure why you taking that attitude tbh

My eyes tell me messi has had a better tournament than Mbappe. Golden ball is the best player. Winning the tournament isn’t a measure of a player being crowned the tournament best.

The last 6 winners have come from teams not winning the cup
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Does this mean that a non-attacking player can't be the best player?
 
davek said:
If he wins a WC final he can be compared on achievement. But raw talent?

No.

I've seen Cruyff, Maradona and Messi in my time.

In this order I'd rate them

1/ Maradona
2/ Cruyff
3/ Messi

Maradona for a complete player
Cruyff for his ability and tactical nous on the pitch as well as off it
Messi for his balance, control and dribbling abilty

That's a hierarchy that wont be affected by any result on Sunday.
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In your opinion. My dad is probably roughly your age and thinks Messi is the best he’s ever seen.
 

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