Should Martinez be sacked? (Post-Stoke poll)

[catcherintherye]

Ok lads, let's say we get these 2 players in. What happens when we are still getting pressed and being forced backwards and, as been the case for the majority of this season, loosing possession close to our own goal.

People have been very vocal about this, but we say we bring in the lad from Celtic, and let's be honest he's playing against third division opposition currently and has a large amount of time on the ball. He gets put it, and all of a sudden the 10 seconds he used to get on the ball turns into 2 seconds, and the below average player that used to chase him down is now a fully fledged international player who has a footballing brain and forces him into making the same mistakes we are witnessing now.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to batten down the hatches for a couple of games, stop the over playing at the back and accept that sometimes your lines need to be cleared and a pass into a danger zone, just to retain possession, is not always the best option.

Get clean sheets and points on the board first, especially with the current slump, because it's not good watching. It's not entertaining, it's not exciting it's just plain poor.

I don’t think anybody is saying we if we sign a couple of players we will magically be fine. Or at least I am not. But there is a point to be said, that Martinez deserves to be judged when he has players who suit his system playing in his team.

The same was true of Moyes. He could only be judged when he had his own players, not the overhang of the Smith era. We had to endure a 17th place finish while he cleared out a lot of the older players.

Between 2004 and say 2006, we moved on Wright, Campbell, Radzinski, Linderoth, Rooney, Steve Watson, Unsworth, Gravesen etc.
In came the likes of Cahill, Arteta, Neville, Beattie and shortly after Lescott and Johnson. Player such as Osman and Hibbert also played a more central role.

Now signing two players in January won’t automatically be that change, but it will be a radical step in that direction, and a message to the players. When Moyes bought Cahill, he bought a player who signified what his teams were all about. He lacked talent and flair, but he was determined, driven, had a fantastic work ethic and hunger and also contributed important goals. Neville was similarly in Moyes’s mould.

Martinez will get that opportunity to do the same. This was a season we were always going to have to have. Frankly I thought this is what it would be last season. I was aware we weren’t going to be able to change our style and reduce the age of the team without seeing a potential short term decline and somewhat chaotic results.

In my head I had always given Martinez a year to be able to do this and to judge him the following season. It’s quite confusing as to why it’s taken an additional year. I can only presume that the point of moving from a Moyes side to a Martinez style team has hit a crisis point in a delayed fashion, but that crisis moment was always going to arrive. Those who didn’t think it would are deluding themselves. There’s also the added combination of injuries and the Europa league to throw in which has only amplified the problems.

Martinez deserves time though. Not because I love him and hated Moyes. If anything it was the opposite. I have huge admiration for Moyes and was very sceptical of Martinez. It is true he won me round last season. But it’s a wider point, why employ a manager and give him a mandate to make changes if you are going to get rid of him after a poor half a season?

One of the big attractions of Everton (that gives us an advantage over other teams) is the fact managers are given time. They are not constantly fearful of the sack and they are able to craft teams in their own image. Players also know they can’t down tools and get a new manager in at the first sign of trouble. We should continue to fight for that tradition.

And let us not forget why Martinez was such an attractive option in the first place. Even for the most ardent Moyes fan (myself) we all welcomed a change of style. More attacking football. More young players getting an opportunity. More of a focus on winning cup competitions. A manager who doesn’t treat games against top teams as a knife in a gun fight.

We welcomed those changes, but they do take time to bed in. Signing two players isn’t going to reverse our fortunes, but it will be an important step in Martinez building a team in his own image.

 

[PurpleRain]

good teams have possession in the oppositions final 3rd, where their creative players can do damage.

we have it with our central defenders who can only do us damage

i put alot of the blame on the midfielders not making themselves available and the manager

instructing them not to hoof it at any cost

 

[orly]

"insult to the fans"??

Kopite behaviour

 

[Deggo]

good teams have possession in the oppositions final 3rd, where their creative players can do damage.

we have it with our central defenders who can only do us damage

i put alot of the blame on the midfielders not making themselves available and the manager

instructing them not to hoof it at any cost

Or the opposition being able to counter our predictability by sitting in their own half and letting us have to ball in our own half

 

[nsno-chris]

I don’t think anybody is saying we if we sign a couple of players we will magically be fine. Or at least I am not. But there is a point to be said, that Martinez deserves to be judged when he has players who suit his system playing in his team.

The same was true of Moyes. He could only be judged when he had his own players, not the overhang of the Smith era. We had to endure a 17th place finish while he cleared out a lot of the older players.

Between 2004 and say 2006, we moved on Wright, Campbell, Radzinski, Linderoth, Rooney, Steve Watson, Unsworth, Gravesen etc.
In came the likes of Cahill, Arteta, Neville, Beattie and shortly after Lescott and Johnson. Player such as Osman and Hibbert also played a more central role.

Now signing two players in January won’t automatically be that change, but it will be a radical step in that direction, and a message to the players. When Moyes bought Cahill, he bought a player who signified what his teams were all about. He lacked talent and flair, but he was determined, driven, had a fantastic work ethic and hunger and also contributed important goals. Neville was similarly in Moyes’s mould.

Martinez will get that opportunity to do the same. This was a season we were always going to have to have. Frankly I thought this is what it would be last season. I was aware we weren’t going to be able to change our style and reduce the age of the team without seeing a potential short term decline and somewhat chaotic results.

In my head I had always given Martinez a year to be able to do this and to judge him the following season. It’s quite confusing as to why it’s taken an additional year. I can only presume that the point of moving from a Moyes side to a Martinez style team has hit a crisis point in a delayed fashion, but that crisis moment was always going to arrive. Those who didn’t think it would are deluding themselves. There’s also the added combination of injuries and the Europa league to throw in which has only amplified the problems.

Martinez deserves time though. Not because I love him and hated Moyes. If anything it was the opposite. I have huge admiration for Moyes and was very sceptical of Martinez. It is true he won me round last season. But it’s a wider point, why employ a manager and give him a mandate to make changes if you are going to get rid of him after a poor half a season?

One of the big attractions of Everton (that gives us an advantage over other teams) is the fact managers are given time. They are not constantly fearful of the sack and they are able to craft teams in their own image. Players also know they can’t down tools and get a new manager in at the first sign of trouble. We should continue to fight for that tradition.

And let us not forget why Martinez was such an attractive option in the first place. Even for the most ardent Moyes fan (myself) we all welcomed a change of style. More attacking football. More young players getting an opportunity. More of a focus on winning cup competitions. A manager who doesn’t treat games against top teams as a knife in a gun fight.

We welcomed those changes, but they do take time to bed in. Signing two players isn’t going to reverse our fortunes, but it will be an important step in Martinez building a team in his own image.

My entire argument is that he had these players, international standard players, last year and got them playing with a style and purpose.

All of a sudden its stopped, these aren't championship players and old crocks what Moyes inherited, these are players of a standard. My issue with this season is that teams know how to play us, its has as clear as daylight, press, press and press. If we do get into the final third sit deep and press the wings...hey prestop the ball goes back and we start again.

All people are banging on about is bringing 2 new players but the entire system is now flawed. Yes i agree that he does need to bring in a couple of new faces, we knew this in the summer (the manager didn't) but if teams know how to set-up against us what is going to change? My entire argument (since the Palace game this season) is that teams can kill us dead, and not that hard. They've stopped us moving the ball by pressing Barry and McCarthy and force us into mistakes.

All i want him to fdo his look at his system and try and change it up; possession at the back can work, but certain times the emphasis needs to be more direct, defence into attack in the blink of an eye and put the opposition on the back foot. He just seems to set in his philosophy to change, thats the annoying and frustrating part

 

[L4Everton]

I don’t think anybody is saying we if we sign a couple of players we will magically be fine. Or at least I am not. But there is a point to be said, that Martinez deserves to be judged when he has players who suit his system playing in his team.

The same was true of Moyes. He could only be judged when he had his own players, not the overhang of the Smith era. We had to endure a 17th place finish while he cleared out a lot of the older players.

Between 2004 and say 2006, we moved on Wright, Campbell, Radzinski, Linderoth, Rooney, Steve Watson, Unsworth, Gravesen etc.
In came the likes of Cahill, Arteta, Neville, Beattie and shortly after Lescott and Johnson. Player such as Osman and Hibbert also played a more central role.

Now signing two players in January won’t automatically be that change, but it will be a radical step in that direction, and a message to the players. When Moyes bought Cahill, he bought a player who signified what his teams were all about. He lacked talent and flair, but he was determined, driven, had a fantastic work ethic and hunger and also contributed important goals. Neville was similarly in Moyes’s mould.

Martinez will get that opportunity to do the same. This was a season we were always going to have to have. Frankly I thought this is what it would be last season. I was aware we weren’t going to be able to change our style and reduce the age of the team without seeing a potential short term decline and somewhat chaotic results.

In my head I had always given Martinez a year to be able to do this and to judge him the following season. It’s quite confusing as to why it’s taken an additional year. I can only presume that the point of moving from a Moyes side to a Martinez style team has hit a crisis point in a delayed fashion, but that crisis moment was always going to arrive. Those who didn’t think it would are deluding themselves. There’s also the added combination of injuries and the Europa league to throw in which has only amplified the problems.

Martinez deserves time though. Not because I love him and hated Moyes. If anything it was the opposite. I have huge admiration for Moyes and was very sceptical of Martinez. It is true he won me round last season. But it’s a wider point, why employ a manager and give him a mandate to make changes if you are going to get rid of him after a poor half a season?

One of the big attractions of Everton (that gives us an advantage over other teams) is the fact managers are given time. They are not constantly fearful of the sack and they are able to craft teams in their own image. Players also know they can’t down tools and get a new manager in at the first sign of trouble. We should continue to fight for that tradition.

And let us not forget why Martinez was such an attractive option in the first place. Even for the most ardent Moyes fan (myself) we all welcomed a change of style. More attacking football. More young players getting an opportunity. More of a focus on winning cup competitions. A manager who doesn’t treat games against top teams as a knife in a gun fight.

We welcomed those changes, but they do take time to bed in. Signing two players isn’t going to reverse our fortunes, but it will be an important step in Martinez building a team in his own image.

Pragmatism.

It's the same point being made over and over.
You can't hammer a nail if you only have a screwdriver. That is not the screwdrivers fault.

One style of play will eventually be found out, unless the style is put into practice by world class players that never make mistakes and have the passing ability of Paul Scholes each to a man. I'm not sure there are many sides that can boast this, and if they can it certainly cost a few quid.

There has over the past couple of pages been the issue of 'hoof ball', its what we have anyway as either the defence gets pressured and loses it or its played back to Howard and its hoofed.

 

[marty mcfly]

Excuse me your majesty, for some people there might actually be a bit of ground inbetween the 'yes' and the 'no' options. I'll cart myself off to the tower now.

Admit you just want him gone. Stop trying to pretend to be a moderate.

 

[marty mcfly]

I know but he's not going to lose his job because of an Internet forum,fans are fickle,we're terrible and it doesn't look like there's any kind of change coming,the manager is infuriating with his post defeat interviews,it's all very worrying but I would imagine a big percentage are just letting off steam,I'm critical and he is wrecking my head but I'm not in the sack him corner yet but I will criticise him until I see he's doing something to arrest this crisis

I don't know the papers and the media seem to mirror a lot of what is talked about here.

 

[Brendan Janus]

If he was to go ? Who's available ?

 

[marty mcfly]

Ok lads, let's say we get these 2 players in. What happens when we are still getting pressed and being forced backwards and, as been the case for the majority of this season, loosing possession close to our own goal.

People have been very vocal about this, but we say we bring in the lad from Celtic, and let's be honest he's playing against third division opposition currently and has a large amount of time on the ball. He gets put it, and all of a sudden the 10 seconds he used to get on the ball turns into 2 seconds, and the below average player that used to chase him down is now a fully fledged international player who has a footballing brain and forces him into making the same mistakes we are witnessing now.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to batten down the hatches for a couple of games, stop the over playing at the back and accept that sometimes your lines need to be cleared and a pass into a danger zone, just to retain possession, is not always the best option.

Get clean sheets and points on the board first, especially with the current slump, because it's not good watching. It's not entertaining, it's not exciting it's just plain poor.

I agree with all that. Martinez needs to change it at least in the short term and if we're still having this discussion in another 6 weeks I can't honestly say my support will still be there but we're on a bad run. We aren't in a crisis.

If we move Barry back to LCB and start Besic, McCarthy or Barkley in the middle two we would have more than enough to avoid the press.

At the moment he's persevering with players and managers will do that. It's a big call to pull senior players.

 

[nsno-chris]

I agree with all that. Martinez needs to change it at least in the short term and if we're still having this discussion in another 6 weeks I can't honestly say my support will still be there but we're on a bad run. We aren't in a crisis.

I'll slightly counter that and say we are currently in a bad run and if it continues, in 6 weeks it will close to a crisis.

Happy New Year

 

[marty mcfly]

I'll slightly counter that and say we are currently in a bad run and if it continues, in 6 weeks it will close to a crisis.

Happy New Year

That's what I meant.

 

[catcherintherye]

My entire argument is that he had these players, international standard players, last year and got them playing with a style and purpose.

All of a sudden its stopped, these aren't championship players and old crocks what Moyes inherited, these are players of a standard. My issue with this season is that teams know how to play us, its has as clear as daylight, press, press and press. If we do get into the final third sit deep and press the wings...hey prestop the ball goes back and we start again.

All people are banging on about is bringing 2 new players but the entire system is now flawed. Yes i agree that he does need to bring in a couple of new faces, we knew this in the summer (the manager didn't) but if teams know how to set-up against us what is going to change? My entire argument (since the Palace game this season) is that teams can kill us dead, and not that hard. They've stopped us moving the ball by pressing Barry and McCarthy and force us into mistakes.

All i want him to fdo his look at his system and try and change it up; possession at the back can work, but certain times the emphasis needs to be more direct, defence into attack in the blink of an eye and put the opposition on the back foot. He just seems to set in his philosophy to change, thats the annoying and frustrating part

Yes you are right, last season it worked very well and I also agree that he inherited a far better squad than Moyes did.

I still think that there needed to be a change in thinking though . I suspect managers last season were a bit lazy in their scouting work and continued to treat us as a Moyes Everton side. Also this season the effects of having more injuries and more games have kicked in. The type of game plan Martinez uses means if it starts going wrong it can go downhill very quickly.
I think we have changed style a little bit. Against Stoke we were more direct. He has changed personnel regularly. We also used different strategies against Arsenal and Manchester United last season successfully.
I do agree though, I think the two areas we could become a bit better are set pieces and our willingness to shoot. Between baines and Mirallas we have players who deliver set plays brilliantly. In Barkley, Baines and Mirallas we have players who are super at striking a ball, and we need to utilise it more.


My post was long winded. I suppose simplistically what I am saying is that if we can get a couple of players in in January it will be a step in the right direction. It will start the process of getting players that are more suited to Martinez’s tactics.

 

[mrb85]

I'll slightly counter that and say we are currently in a bad run and if it continues, in 6 weeks it will close to a crisis.

Happy New Year

Sooner than that.

 

[daz4matty]

I haven't counted them, tbf. I know that there's a handful of people pushing for it furiously who have ALWAYS wanted Martinez out from the very beginning regardless of this slide; but there's also a fair few who are more honest than that who are being swayed by results and genuinely fear for the future.

The former group I really dont have any regard for at all. It's just an agenda they're driving forward to get rid of a manager who they detest because of the football he plays and they want a manager to replace him in the semi-agricultural mode of Moyes - a style of football they've been used to for a decade or so. Basically they hate the School of Science method of football and want us to regress to the past and ditch a passing game.

It's pretty sad to see, because you just know they want Everton beaten in matches. I cant fathom that.

No supporter wants everton to lose that is garbage.