Should you support your national team?

[Bishop Thumpety-Thump]

I'm always curious what people that think this think people around the rest of the world were doing at that time; were they singing kumbaya? Obviously when england was doing its thieving etc, there was no one to fight, because obviously if there was someone to fight in the form of armies and weapons that would imply other nations were doing exactly the same, and that obviously didn't happen according to this world view.

Also curious if they just have a blind spot for the force for good england has also been in the world.

Not sure that argument is very strong personally. ‘Well yes I did rape and murder but it’s only what Fred West was doing’.

 

[chrismpw]

I'm always curious what people that think this think people around the rest of the world were doing at that time; were they singing kumbaya? Obviously when england was doing its thieving etc, there was no one to fight, because obviously if there was someone to fight in the form of armies and weapons that would imply other nations were doing exactly the same, and that obviously didn't happen according to this world view.

Also curious if they just have a blind spot for the force for good england has also been in the world.

I imagine much of the rest of the world were doing similar but on a much smaller scale and without the same wealth acquiring coordination or infrastructure. So the fact that we were better than the rest of the world at invading and stealing is hardly a feather in our cap to shout about.

Yes we have done notable stuff - the industrial revolution started here because of the geological good fortune of having the natural resources required in abundance - coal, limestone and iron ore. put that together with the ideas of a Scot (Watt) who fantastically improved the simple and inefficient steam engine thought up by an englishman and we started making weapons and travelling machines even more quickly. The products of that revolution enslaved massed workers to the wealthy, was able to create munitions effectively and the means to distribute them (rail and steam ships). It also created vast amounts of pollution and consumerism to spread around the world that leaves the planet teetering on the brink today - but let's have a blind spot for that.

We tend to convince ourselves that every other good development on the planet is solely down to us - as if Voltaire, Marconi, Rutherford, Watt, etc were English inventors/scientists when they weren't - so we have a national blind spot where the rest of the world is concerned. We even claim the New Zealander Edmund Hillary as ours ffs. We just don't study or learn about the contribution of other nations in our schools.

In my view - what the English upper eschelons have been best at since the Normans up until the 1900s is acquisition and the improved means to acquire and possess - even from their own people while hiding that behind a veneer of civility. Hardly something to be proud about.

 

[Billy Dean]

I imagine much of the rest of the world were doing similar but on a much smaller scale and without the same wealth acquiring coordination or infrastructure. So the fact that we were better than the rest of the world at invading and stealing is hardly a feather in our cap to shout about.

Yes we have done notable stuff - the industrial revolution started here because of the geological good fortune of having the natural resources required in abundance - coal, limestone and iron ore. put that together with the ideas of a Scot (Watt) who fantastically improved the simple and inefficient steam engine thought up by an englishman and we started making weapons and travelling machines even more quickly. The products of that revolution enslaved massed workers to the wealthy, was able to create munitions effectively and the means to distribute them (rail and steam ships). It also created vast amounts of pollution and consumerism to spread around the world that leaves the planet teetering on the brink today - but let's have a blind spot for that.

We tend to convince ourselves that every other good development on the planet is solely down to us - as if Voltaire, Marconi, Rutherford, Watt, etc were English inventors/scientists when they weren't - so we have a national blind spot where the rest of the world is concerned. We even claim the New Zealander Edmund Hillary as ours ffs. We just don't study or learn about the contribution of other nations in our schools.

In my view - what the English upper eschelons have been best at since the Normans up until the 1900s is acquisition and the improved means to acquire and possess - even from their own people while hiding that behind a veneer of civility. Hardly something to be proud about.

I understand all that and agree with it. But for me personally I can separate all that from sport which is basically just a bit of fun. The England football team is not decimating and pillaging foreign countries, despite what a large minority of neanderthals in its fanbase would hope.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Come on you Atlas Lions!

 

[chrismpw]

I understand all that and agree with it. But for me personally I can separate all that from sport which is basically just a bit of fun. The England football team is not decimating and pillaging foreign countries, despite what a large minority of neanderthals in its fanbase would hope.

Think I said pretty much the same in my first post in the thread. Our sportsmen aren't responsible for England's foul deeds. In fact one good thing England as delivered the world is a range of excellent sports, even if today's pundits are doing their best to normalise unsporting behaviour and cheating.

Rugby is the one I struggle with most. I want to support England... but when I see them play I just think they're over-privileged rich boys from public schools so I'm not upset when they lose. On the other hand I see the passion of the Welsh and find myself wanting them to do well ... unless they're playing England, but then I'm not bothered if England lose and I don't want the Welsh to beat us but if they do it doesn't matter. See? I struggle! ?

 

[Martin Alvito]

If you're from either side of the 'special relationship', it's a bit like sex: probably not, but we do it anyway.

 

[McCall2Radzinski]

As a kid, I never quite understood how there was a sense that the English didn't want England to win. The attachment to the town/county was stronger than to the country. But I remember when Steven Gerrard was captain of the 2014 team, and I thought, "Oh, I get it now. There's no way 97% of the country would want to live there with Steven Gerrard having status as a WC winning captain."

I jumped off the Australia bandwagon when we dumped our coach before the 2014 WC, Holger Osieck, and replaced him with Ange Postecoglou. It was no surprise to me that Australia ended up having our worst WC record that year, much in the same way it didn't surprise me Celtic were crap in the CL. Then it didn't surprise me circumstances came about that Postecoglou didn't finish the 2018 WC cycle.

You should support your national team, but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.

 

[degsy]

I've started this thread following recent discussions on here, largely involving the general secretary of the Union of socialist scouse republics, commandant davek.

I listened to this podcast from some avowed commies, Marxists or 'comrades' and as part of this there is a discussion on why it is important for those on the left to support the England team. It has David goldblatt on, the author of 'the ball is round.'

LINK: Pro revolution soccer

I used to love football, I lived football, I watched football, live at Goodison...I was there before Carey took his Taxi...On the local park, on TV, I played football from after my breakfast until it was too dark to see if 'The next goal was indeed - the winner,', I played around the (some now defunt) leagues, on all the ( mostly built upon) local pitches, I coached football, men, women, boys, girls, from 6 to 56.
But somewhere along the way, gradually, football changed, football left me and/or I grew Immune to the virus or more likely the virus mutated
(*off topic alert* pretty much like Harold Wilson's labour party left me too)

The little bit of football I can still tolerate comes in a blue shirt and...for now...resides in L4.
Not in the HQ of the F.A. or Stockley Park.

 

[Cameron Manning]

I'm always curious what people that think this think people around the rest of the world were doing at that time; were they singing kumbaya? Obviously when england was doing its thieving etc, there was no one to fight, because obviously if there was someone to fight in the form of armies and weapons that would imply other nations were doing exactly the same, and that obviously didn't happen according to this world view.

Also curious if they just have a blind spot for the force for good england has also been in the world.

And while England was one of the richest countries in the world most of the working class were living in poverty while the men were fighting the wars for them with no gain or even a thought to improving peoples welfare,much like today in many ways.

 

[stipe]

I imagine much of the rest of the world were doing similar but on a much smaller scale and without the same wealth acquiring coordination or infrastructure. So the fact that we were better than the rest of the world at invading and stealing is hardly a feather in our cap to shout about.

Yes we have done notable stuff - the industrial revolution started here because of the geological good fortune of having the natural resources required in abundance - coal, limestone and iron ore. put that together with the ideas of a Scot (Watt) who fantastically improved the simple and inefficient steam engine thought up by an englishman and we started making weapons and travelling machines even more quickly. The products of that revolution enslaved massed workers to the wealthy, was able to create munitions effectively and the means to distribute them (rail and steam ships). It also created vast amounts of pollution and consumerism to spread around the world that leaves the planet teetering on the brink today - but let's have a blind spot for that.

We tend to convince ourselves that every other good development on the planet is solely down to us - as if Voltaire, Marconi, Rutherford, Watt, etc were English inventors/scientists when they weren't - so we have a national blind spot where the rest of the world is concerned. We even claim the New Zealander Edmund Hillary as ours ffs. We just don't study or learn about the contribution of other nations in our schools.

In my view - what the English upper eschelons have been best at since the Normans up until the 1900s is acquisition and the improved means to acquire and possess - even from their own people while hiding that behind a veneer of civility. Hardly something to be proud about.

Every country on this world is self absorbed, its not like French (especially), Russians, Spanish, Americans etc..... learn much about other.
In my school 90 percent of focus was on our own history, any other (outside ww2) was superficial and short. Old Greece and Rome are only exception.

Also this self loathing seem weird, from my own experience i don't think any country that was powerful in the past and had empire is really ashamed. I remember visiting Habsburg palace and museum in Vienna, and tour guide was very proud describing past glamour and imperial past of Austria and all the countries where Habsburgs ruled.

But your colonial empire was outside Europe (so outside Irish) nobody really had much grudge against you on this continent, unlike for example Germans, Russians and others who fought and were attempting to conquer this continent in the past. Maybe those you fecked over in Africa and India got different attitude, i don't know.

 

[Papa Shango]

I used to love football, I lived football, I watched football, live at Goodison...I was there before Carey took his Taxi...On the local park, on TV, I played football from after my breakfast until it was too dark to see if 'The next goal was indeed - the winner,', I played around the (some now defunt) leagues, on all the ( mostly built upon) local pitches, I coached football, men, women, boys, girls, from 6 to 56.
But somewhere along the way, gradually, football changed, football left me and/or I grew Immune to the virus or more likely the virus mutated
(*off topic alert* pretty much like Harold Wilson's labour party left me too)

The little bit of football I can still tolerate comes in a blue shirt and...for now...resides in L4.
Not in the HQ of the F.A. or Stockley Park.

Football is too homogonized these days. For all the Qatar fuss this tournament could have been held anywhere and nobody would notice from a TV standpoint.

Everton will keep you coming back because you care about them. Though probably less and less with each passing season!

 

[degsy]

Short version;
The
England
Football
Team...The Fooball Team from England

I think we have to separate 'England' the country, it's origins, history and perceived actions, real and imagined*

(*I count myself to be extremely luck to be born when I was, as the man said - I have never had it so good.
...but all that belongs in the 'England' the country, etc, etc.)

From the 11 guys who kick the football about, not too sure about them being a group who, as a whole, that I can identify with and 'get behind'

 

[McBain]

Don't follow the Country you were born in or follow another country coz you got bullied at school or something = Wokeflakes