Stadium Thread - ALL Kirkby/Stadium Discussion Here

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DENNIS STEVENS said:
davek, i've never got this whole land value reference. if we won't own the land (or 100% of stadium?) & will be paying a "peppercorn rent" on the lease, then it seems to me that the only party gaining from this land value is the developer of the overall project : tesco. not too sure how that translates into a subsidy for our new stadium as tesco have already said they won't be putting a penny in directly. :unsure:
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As I say, the deal has always been as clear as mud. I've seen both explanations that the £50M refers to a straight land giveaway passed on to EFC, and an explanation that the land (to be 'given away' by KMBC for £12M to the developers if the scheme got the nod) would increase its value to an estimated £50M by virtue of the development taking place. It sounds like alchemy to me, and although councils have given land up for developement in the past, I believe there's a mighty stink about how this land disposal has been arranged (the 'giveaway' price and the way it's being parcelled up by one involved private party, Tesco, and passed on to another private party, Everton). That's an issue the Inspector would no doubt be drawing the Sec of State's attention to in her Report he's reading now....amongst other things!
 
Bluebuzzer said:
Hi Dave, agreed, a refurb is doable and yes i was hazarding a guess at the cost of that, anything is possible in construction, its the "effectivness" of such a venture, would it achieve the desired outcome after spending a large amount of money. Yes this "regime" do seem reluctant to want to venture down the avenue of at least procurring a cost plan to set off against a "new build" scenario.

Ok i do take note of what you say as being Elstones assertions but as an aside and albeit a bit of broad brush question i did chat with a couple of Structrual engineers (when looking at the RS's stadium plans) and they did say "on face value" they would be suprised if GP could sustain itself under a major face lift, they cited further modern steelwork and beam encasement work to bring it up to modern regs. Ok again i'm guessing but when i have dealt with with a couple of buildings in the past, they have had to meet current regs as the whole construction is covered by the certificate so maybe it may have something to do with that





Sorry Dave, not read the above, having trouble accessing it but i will at some point






I disagree Dave, much of the steel or any costly materials for any major project is earmarked at a very early stage in the life of a project. Corus dictate steel market prices and its simply supply and demand. european demand is extremely low at present and Corus have an interest in lowering the prices to kickstart developers into moving. Beliieve me when i say the construction industry hasnt even begun to feel the recession yet, it will be dire next year. On the other issue regarding finance, i have no idea how the financing of a new stadium would happen, i have no idea on such things and like i said before i'm purely offering an opinion and a couple of facts on construction and costs, nothing more

I will say that i believe the whole issue of new stadium versus redevolpment have not totally been exhausted and thats something that does need to be done to give all parties a balanced view. On a personal note although i would like to see GP there for another 100 years i dont think its the most feasable way forward BUT that doesnt mean i'm agreeing to a new stadium "at any cost / anywhere"
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Tell me you really are just another Evertonian. It just seems you are putting a great spin on this here new "cow shed" in Kir[k]by, mate.:lol:
 
davek said:
As I say, the deal has always been as clear as mud. I've seen both explanations that the £50M refers to a straight land giveaway passed on to EFC, and an explanation that the land (to be 'given away' by KMBC for £12M to the developers if the scheme got the nod) would increase its value to an estimated £50M by virtue of the development taking place. It sounds like alchemy to me, and although councils have given land up for developement in the past, I believe there's a mighty stink about how this land disposal has been arranged (the 'giveaway' price and the way it's being parcelled up by one involved private party, Tesco, and passed on to another private party, Everton). That's an issue the Inspector would no doubt be drawing the Sec of State's attention to in her Report he's reading now....amongst other things!
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but it's always been quite clear that everton will not own the land & will have to pay a "nominal" rent to the leaseholder, whoever that may be. i presume that all the land will intitially be passed to tesco as the developer - do they then pass on a slice for the stadium & is the reson we pay rent on it due to it being bought from the club at market rates to subsidise the stadium, in which case it'll be somewhat like the situation at finch farm, i suppose?? :unsure:
 
DENNIS STEVENS said:
but it's always been quite clear that everton will not own the land & will have to pay a "nominal" rent to the leaseholder, whoever that may be. i presume that all the land will intitially be passed to tesco as the developer - do they then pass on a slice for the stadium & is the reson we pay rent on it due to it being bought from the club at market rates to subsidise the stadium, in which case it'll be somewhat like the situation at finch farm, i suppose?? :unsure:
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Land goes to Tesco and Everon get it "free" because they'll have a 999 year "secured" lease at a peppercorn rent. I suppose the way they see it is if Everton were looking to buy the land themselves it'd cost tens of millions and through this tortuous (barely legal?) route they can concentrate on purchasing (at least in part) an off the shelf stadium. That extra cost of buying land has always been lumped on to the £100M figure arrived at for the stadium build itself - hence the famed "£150M" stadium.
 

Bluebuzzer said:
I didnt really want to comment on all this Kirkby stuff, its been done to death, However i am in the construction sector, not your house extension or primary school stuff. I work in large major construction projects such as Airports, Shopping centres, large office developments and yes football stadia. I was also unfortunate to have had a hand in the budget costing of the RS's proposed new stadia (bloody waste of time). I will also not go into detail but a few facts that a few may not be aware of are the following........

1. Goodison Park will basically find it near on impossible to get relevant safety and fire certificates for goodison in less than 10 years time. The steelwork and superstructure in the stadia as is will not pass regs due to its age. Yes maybe additional structure and encasements to combat fire safety may work but the cost would be astronomic and not a very cost effective way to "buy more time", coupled with the fact that revenue loss and all the money coming from the club just makes it a laughable solution for what would basically seem to the fans as being "all that money just to see some new steel and beams". I am NOT an expert in that very field, far from it but as a lay mans guesstimate i would hazard £30 - £40m to do the whole job........... loss of revenue? well who knows?

2. These people that say "glorified cow shed" eeerrrrm HELLO !!! i have seen the RS's plans in depth some time ago and i can assure you Evertons (from little i've seen) are no different in specification. Those who have seen the Nou Camp, i'm sure you will agree although huge, the specification isnt that much to look at? Even wembley with the exception of the roof is fairly basic in its detail. Dont get me wrong, i'd love to see Evertons new ground (if it happens) have an all encompassing roof 360 degrees around the place but if what was said is true that the "corners" can be "rounded" off with a roof in the future then thats a good option for us to have. ALL stadia are basically cow sheds, what makes a stadia special is the viewing experience, the corporate facilities and the all round atmosphere.

3. Our gates are down on a lot of Prem clubs because of our 4000 obstructed views. Tell me, would you like to see Everton V Hull on a sunday afternoon knowing you were a) going to get p155ed on (family enclosure) or B) stuck behind a post viewing half a pitch. I think not, if we had 40,000 grade A viewing seats then we would fill them (given our recent success) and i suspect even more!!! I think we offer 4000 seats to away supporters and most of those only take half their allocation (ok maybe more) so our actual attendances are pretty good year on year. I do feel we could get 45,000 week in week out plus the away support so i'm guessing we are about 10 - 15,000 seats short.

The above is just my view but with a bit of "professional" understanding thrown in, dont get me wrong, i love Goodison and i do want to KEIOC but my head tells me that my heart has to give way. No doubt people will have arguments for and against what i said but i like i said its just me and my view and a little of what i do for a living thrown in

I love Everton, my son and i live and breath this club and i only want wants best for us all. One thing we all have in common is we love a great old lady like our grandmothers and we're only looking after her best interests the best way we know how!!!!

Sorry i also wanted to say that if we were to build a NEW stadium then right now is the time to do it, in heart of a recession. The construction industry is fast running out of work and inherantly construction is a good 12 months behind the rest of the economy so we could get a good knock down price for a new stadium and the contract could be written into a more "one sided" approach in favour of everton to ensure we dont have costs spiralling out of control. Construction costs are at an all time low, material prices are hitting rock bottom, if you are gonna build then build NOW !
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The roof at Kirkby doesn't bother me, I'm sure it will be upto scratch, what bothers me hugely is that they haven't got anywhere for the atmosphere to be generated. So yet againwe'll struggle to get songs, especially new ones, to get going at the match. I don't know whether it is intentional to stop the fans from singing, perhaps their only interest is the corporate fans. The roof's only purpose then will be to keep the rain off.
 
i sat at goodison for the radzinski last minute winner v sunderland a while back.

i was in the main stand and thought i was set for a decent view. i kid you not. i had 2 pillars in my line of sight. one was covering entirely the park end goal and the other was covering the gwladys street goal except for the 2 posts.

i would have taken a new ground right there and then.
 
Exactly, something has to be done. I am not though going to get involved all over again in a stadium debate.

One small point to make sure you get to the games in the future make sure when inputting info into your satnav for the ground, you type Kirkby. If you put in Kirby heavens knows where you will end up.:lol::P
 

They would be unlikely to be appeased by the approval being conditional on a stadium somewhat smaller than the projected 50,000. There are suggestions that this may be the inspector's recommendation.

if it's smaller then all reasons for moving for increased income will be out of the window, when are they gonna tell the shoite that their planning permission is withdrawn and they can do one ?
 

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