Stadium Thread - ALL Kirkby/Stadium Discussion Here

[trebilcock66]

Thank you this was the type of post I was looking for. I guess you can't explain this whole situation in a sentence or two.

I don't want to turn this thread into a Kirby bashing or the that Kirby thread that's 180 pages long

the name Kirby does sound cool, but not as cool as Everton.

If only you knew....

 

[GrandOldTeam]

If only you knew....

Knew what?

Thats its spelt Kirkby?

When someone, such as yourself - cant even spell Kirkby - then anything they spiel afterwards is largely irrelevant.

 

[Goat]

I heard they rob socks in Kirby and also shop at Asda.

 

[trebilcock66]

Knew what?

Thats its spelt Kirkby?

When someone, such as yourself - cant even spell Kirkby - then anything they spiel afterwards is largely irrelevant.

Only a week ago, I was asking you in a tremulous voice if I could "p..p..please leave the room, sir..." after your scary pointy finger...

Now you're correcting my spelling! Just 'cos you've got a degree now doesn't mean that you can come over all Mr Squeers....

I was simply amused at the thought of KirKby being cool. Surely that's understandable?

Can I go now?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Only a week ago, I was asking you in a tremulous voice if I could "p..p..please leave the room, sir..." after your scary pointy finger...

Now you're correcting my spelling! Just 'cos you've got a degree now doesn't mean that you can come over all Mr Squeers....

I was simply amused at the thought of KirKby being cool. Surely that's understandable?

Can I go now?

Not yet.

The point was a very valid one. One I have raised before. It wasn't about correcting your spelling.

If you can't see it, more fool you.

 

[trebilcock66]

Hmmm. Not sure I follow you GOT.

OK, I spelled Kirkby wrong. That has exactly what to do with my credibility?

I'm not a professional journalist or writer. Just an interested Evertonian - who occasionally spells things wrong. Lots of posters make mistakes but we all have something relevant to say, yes?

Unless you're winding me up. In which case, you've got me...

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Hmmm. Not sure I follow you GOT.

OK, I spelled Kirkby wrong. That has exactly what to do with my credibility?

I'm not a professional journalist or writer. Just an interested Evertonian - who occasionally spells things wrong. Lots of posters make mistakes but we all have something relevant to say, yes?

Unless you're winding me up. In which case, you've got me...

It wasn't merely the spelling - I have never corrected spelling on here as I am well aware that colloquialism exists on a football forum.

The point was, if you don't know how to spell Kirkby - then theres an increased likelihood that not only are you illinformed on the matter, but you have also never actually been. No doubt you will claim you have - but on that basis, am not sure you are actually qualified to slander Kirkby - a place were a lot of members on here live, to a foreign fan.

 

[chicoazul]

rips off shirt or something*

 

[trebilcock66]

OK, GOT.

If I've offended anyone who lives in or near Kirkby, I apologise. Certainly not my intention.

Family all from Knotty Ash. Uncle worked at Yorkshire Imperial Metals for about thirty years. (Not sure why I feel I've got to defend myself to anyone...)

Know Kirkby well and am still wryly amused at the thought of it being seen as cool. I'm unapologetic about that part but hope I've not upset anyone.

We OK now GOT? If not, lets continue by pm - not fair to hog this thread.

 

[DENNIS STEVENS]

I didnt really want to comment on all this Kirkby stuff, its been done to death, However i am in the construction sector, not your house extension or primary school stuff. I work in large major construction projects such as Airports, Shopping centres, large office developments and yes football stadia. I was also unfortunate to have had a hand in the budget costing of the RS's proposed new stadia (bloody waste of time). I will also not go into detail but a few facts that a few may not be aware of are the following........

1. Goodison Park will basically find it near on impossible to get relevant safety and fire certificates for goodison in less than 10 years time. The steelwork and superstructure in the stadia as is will not pass regs due to its age. Yes maybe additional structure and encasements to combat fire safety may work but the cost would be astronomic and not a very cost effective way to "buy more time", coupled with the fact that revenue loss and all the money coming from the club just makes it a laughable solution for what would basically seem to the fans as being "all that money just to see some new steel and beams". I am NOT an expert in that very field, far from it but as a lay mans guesstimate i would hazard £30 - £40m to do the whole job........... loss of revenue? well who knows?

2. These people that say "glorified cow shed" eeerrrrm HELLO !!! i have seen the RS's plans in depth some time ago and i can assure you Evertons (from little i've seen) are no different in specification. Those who have seen the Nou Camp, i'm sure you will agree although huge, the specification isnt that much to look at? Even wembley with the exception of the roof is fairly basic in its detail. Dont get me wrong, i'd love to see Evertons new ground (if it happens) have an all encompassing roof 360 degrees around the place but if what was said is true that the "corners" can be "rounded" off with a roof in the future then thats a good option for us to have. ALL stadia are basically cow sheds, what makes a stadia special is the viewing experience, the corporate facilities and the all round atmosphere.

3. Our gates are down on a lot of Prem clubs because of our 4000 obstructed views. Tell me, would you like to see Everton V Hull on a sunday afternoon knowing you were a) going to get p155ed on (family enclosure) or B) stuck behind a post viewing half a pitch. I think not, if we had 40,000 grade A viewing seats then we would fill them (given our recent success) and i suspect even more!!! I think we offer 4000 seats to away supporters and most of those only take half their allocation (ok maybe more) so our actual attendances are pretty good year on year. I do feel we could get 45,000 week in week out plus the away support so i'm guessing we are about 10 - 15,000 seats short.

The above is just my view but with a bit of "professional" understanding thrown in, dont get me wrong, i love Goodison and i do want to KEIOC but my head tells me that my heart has to give way. No doubt people will have arguments for and against what i said but i like i said its just me and my view and a little of what i do for a living thrown in

I love Everton, my son and i live and breath this club and i only want wants best for us all. One thing we all have in common is we love a great old lady like our grandmothers and we're only looking after her best interests the best way we know how!!!!

Sorry i also wanted to say that if we were to build a NEW stadium then right now is the time to do it, in heart of a recession. The construction industry is fast running out of work and inherantly construction is a good 12 months behind the rest of the economy so we could get a good knock down price for a new stadium and the contract could be written into a more "one sided" approach in favour of everton to ensure we dont have costs spiralling out of control. Construction costs are at an all time low, material prices are hitting rock bottom, if you are gonna build then build NOW !

Does all steel work over a certain age have to be replaced in all old buildings? I recall somebody saying that Goodison wouldn't meet the current specs if it were to be built now but that most/some/all (?) applicable regs were not applied retrospectively, I don't know whether that's applicable to the scenario you describe. But we've also had other professional experts claim that there is no prospect of Goodison Park failing to get "relevant safety and fire certificates", but experts contradicting each other is par for the course where Kirkby is concerned.

As for the new stadium design, well I think that's the least of our worries, tbh. I'm more bothered about the very poor deal the club seem to have negotiated with their "partners" in this scheme, the very great probability that we will see little or no additional funds for Moyes transfer kitty (the main reason for moving as I recall) & the woeful transport situation that will quickly see fans start to cherry-pick matches & average attendances fall as a consequence. For me the actual location is only an issue because people just won't be able to get to & from the stadium location - not a good plan to grow the business!

 

[Goat]

Kirby for the Kirby people.

 

[Bluebuzzer]

What proof do you have - beyond Mr Elstone's assertions - that a safety certificate for GP will be withheld within the decade? As for a complete refurbishment of Goodison: it's doable. Even the club say that (and they acknowledge the efforts of some of the best architects and designers who've proven this) but it comes at a price this particular regime cant provide costs for. This we know. I fail to see how the solution is to rush into a suburban build away from the core of our support with poor transport links and a local council calling the shots on revenue and use of the stadium.

Hi Dave, agreed, a refurb is doable and yes i was hazarding a guess at the cost of that, anything is possible in construction, its the "effectivness" of such a venture, would it achieve the desired outcome after spending a large amount of money. Yes this "regime" do seem reluctant to want to venture down the avenue of at least procurring a cost plan to set off against a "new build" scenario.

Ok i do take note of what you say as being Elstones assertions but as an aside and albeit a bit of broad brush question i did chat with a couple of Structrual engineers (when looking at the RS's stadium plans) and they did say "on face value" they would be suprised if GP could sustain itself under a major face lift, they cited further modern steelwork and beam encasement work to bring it up to modern regs. Ok again i'm guessing but when i have dealt with with a couple of buildings in the past, they have had to meet current regs as the whole construction is covered by the certificate so maybe it may have something to do with that

Analysis that runs counter to the admissions of expert witness evidence FOR the stadium by those looking to fit the Barr shell out which acknowledges the basic design and potential atmospheric issues of the proposed stadium, and that's quite besides the absolute roasting the aesthetic 'virtues' of this build recieved from CABE: cabe/design-review/kirkby-masterplan]Kirkby Masterplan | Design review | CABE

Sorry Dave, not read the above, having trouble accessing it but i will at some point

We have a small matter of the Olympic games coming up. I suspect construction costs in terms of labour and materials (steel isn't Everton's problem so much - it's Barr's, we our just having to fit out the skeletal structure) will be affected...and then there'll possibly be the much vaunted public works programmes getting shuffled forward to provide employment (political conditions no doubt permitting post election). Initial costs to the club THREE YEARS AGO were £78M. Unless Tesco are going to force Barr to pass on any savings from currently plummeting steel prices I'd suggest that it'll be at least that original cost and probably more. A club that cant raise another two million for two Championship players

I disagree Dave, much of the steel or any costly materials for any major project is earmarked at a very early stage in the life of a project. Corus dictate steel market prices and its simply supply and demand. european demand is extremely low at present and Corus have an interest in lowering the prices to kickstart developers into moving. Beliieve me when i say the construction industry hasnt even begun to feel the recession yet, it will be dire next year. On the other issue regarding finance, i have no idea how the financing of a new stadium would happen, i have no idea on such things and like i said before i'm purely offering an opinion and a couple of facts on construction and costs, nothing more

I will say that i believe the whole issue of new stadium versus redevolpment have not totally been exhausted and thats something that does need to be done to give all parties a balanced view. On a personal note although i would like to see GP there for another 100 years i dont think its the most feasable way forward BUT that doesnt mean i'm agreeing to a new stadium "at any cost / anywhere"

 

[steevie]

Main problem is actually moving outside the City boundary, but a major problem for me is why build a 50,000 seater stadium in a poorer location, when we cant even fill Goodison Park?

Oh, and the pesky water voles are my friends.

 

[davek]

Hi Dave, agreed, a refurb is doable and yes i was hazarding a guess at the cost of that, anything is possible in construction, its the "effectivness" of such a venture, would it achieve the desired outcome after spending a large amount of money. Yes this "regime" do seem reluctant to want to venture down the avenue of at least procurring a cost plan to set off against a "new build" scenario.

Ok i do take note of what you say as being Elstones assertions but as an aside and albeit a bit of broad brush question i did chat with a couple of Structrual engineers (when looking at the RS's stadium plans) and they did say "on face value" they would be suprised if GP could sustain itself under a major face lift, they cited further modern steelwork and beam encasement work to bring it up to modern regs. Ok again i'm guessing but when i have dealt with with a couple of buildings in the past, they have had to meet current regs as the whole construction is covered by the certificate so maybe it may have something to do with that

We've had it underlined many times in the recent past that the club can stay at GP by carrying out annual structural repairs the club say cost us in excess of £1M. So, as already established, the issue is finance for them not one of inevitable physical deterioration (in fact, the CEO accepts the alternative of staying at GP, though with declining commercial possibilities). As for the effectiveness of a redevelopment of the ground, I'm no expert but architect and consultant to St James's Park's development, Trevor Skempton, made a persuasive case in his evidence to the Kirkby Inquiry for a phased redevelopment of the ground - upgrading the capacity of the facility to an eventual 63,000 on a slightly extended footprint, making room for the required commercial facilities whilst retaining many of the the ground's historic features.

Sorry Dave, not read the above, having trouble accessing it but i will at some point

Relevant bit from CABE link:

"Both Everton and Kirkby deserve a stadium of first class design quality, and we are not convinced that this has been realised by the current proposals...It is our view that this megastructure, located in the centre of the town, must be of first class design quality as well as bringing economic benefit....We are concerned that the stadium design is being delivered by a Design and Build contractor. It is our view that Design and Build contracts can produce successful outcomes only when high quality design is embedded in the process; we do not feel that this has been achieved in this case....Also, we do not feel that an inspiring sense of arrival, as one would expect to have upon approaching a stadium of this size and significance, has been achieved."

I disagree Dave, much of the steel or any costly materials for any major project is earmarked at a very early stage in the life of a project. Corus dictate steel market prices and its simply supply and demand. european demand is extremely low at present and Corus have an interest in lowering the prices to kickstart developers into moving. Beliieve me when i say the construction industry hasnt even begun to feel the recession yet, it will be dire next year. On the other issue regarding finance, i have no idea how the financing of a new stadium would happen, i have no idea on such things and like i said before i'm purely offering an opinion and a couple of facts on construction and costs, nothing more"

Ok, steel and cement coming down in price is said to be wiping off £40M of Spurs' costs for their new stadium (roughly 16% of the total cost). The stadium in Kirkby is costing £100M (with a complex - very complex! - deal with the developers/local council to throw in £50M worth of land value). If that was repeated at Kirkby costs of the build would fall to £84M. But my understanding is that Everton's responsibility, cost wise, would be on fit out and the cost of preparing both the stadium's immediate environment and sharing transport improvement costs with the developer, with Barr Construction taking the bulk of the construction costs on the chin. As stated, if Barr were lent on by Tesco to share the spoils of the 'downturn dividend' what you say might make perfect sense (albeit it wouldn't really dent substantially the debt levels a club of Everton's poverty stricken status would land itself with). But this deal is about as clear as mud in terms of who coughs up for what, so who knows?

EFC statement re financing of stadium pp.28-30 http://www.evertonfc.com/assets/_fi...c__1227086341_RE_Proof_of_Evidence_271008.pdf

I will say that i believe the whole issue of new stadium versus redevolpment have not totally been exhausted and thats something that does need to be done to give all parties a balanced view. On a personal note although i would like to see GP there for another 100 years i dont think its the most feasable way forward BUT that doesnt mean i'm agreeing to a new stadium "at any cost / anywhere"

Fair enough mate.

 

[DENNIS STEVENS]

davek, i've never got this whole land value reference. if we won't own the land (or 100% of stadium?) & will be paying a "peppercorn rent" on the lease, then it seems to me that the only party gaining from this land value is the developer of the overall project : tesco. not too sure how that translates into a subsidy for our new stadium as tesco have already said they won't be putting a penny in directly.