The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[The Esk]

I do agree with you on many fronts here. My main issue is with unions...especially ones that drive wages up so high that the cost is passed on to the average consumer.

It is for this reason that there is so much manufacturing done in SE Asia and the like.

Companies will always look for the most cost effective way to run their business, and if that means moving a call center to India or American automakers building cars in Mexico, they will do it.

Well I actually think unions have historically been a power of good for working conditions and pay over the years, in my own businesses I encouraged union membership.

You might wonder why? Well negotiation is a two way process. Not only do we negotiate wages and employment conditions but many other things such as productivity, quality control levels, discipline and dispute mechanisms, company strategy, staffing numbers and recruitment.

Don't want it to sound too ideal as it's not always and negotiations are tough on both sides. However it sets an agreement for the year, something which ensures the company meets its objectives and the staff are well paid, motivated and want to work where they work.

 

[The Esk]

Whilst I agree with your sentiments regarding pay, investment in technology will actually reduce job opportunities as robotics take an ever greater role.

Well, actually it is technology that has allowed my businesses to grow and become a size that employed many more people than we would have if we remained low tech. It also allows us to build higher quality products which command higher prices and have the highest customer satisfaction ratings in their sectors.

 

[roydo]

Well I actually think unions have historically been a power of good for working conditions and pay over the years, in my own businesses I encouraged union membership.

You might wonder why? Well negotiation is a two way process. Not only do we negotiate wages and employment conditions but many other things such as productivity, quality control levels, discipline and dispute mechanisms, company strategy, staffing numbers and recruitment.

Don't want it to sound too ideal as it's not always and negotiations are tough on both sides. However it sets an agreement for the year, something which ensures the company meets its objectives and the staff are well paid, motivated and want to work where they work.

Is so right. It is quite amazing what can happen to the (mutual) success of a business when management, owners, and workforce all pull in the same direction, all share in the success, and all feel thay have contributed to that.

Waitrose and John Lewis are a pretty good example. As is Esk Ltd.

 

[tsubaki]

And because older employees are actually incredibly valuable to society

Are they, though? Are they more useful than a younger person?

 

[Milk]

Well, actually it is technology that has allowed my businesses to grow and become a size that employed many more people than we would have if we remained low tech. It also allows us to build higher quality products which command higher prices and have the highest customer satisfaction ratings in their sectors.

We have invested in robotics partly to offset the problem of acquiring (& retaining) exceptional staff and to reduce cost. Robots don't need holidays or too much time off sick and will happily work 24/7.
I can see more jobs lost to robots ........ and this has been flagged up by the House of Lords Digital Skills Committee who are estimating 35% of current jobs are "at risk"

 

[roydo]

We have invested in robotics partly to offset the problem of acquiring (& retaining) exceptional staff and to reduce cost. Robots don't need holidays or too much time off sick and will happily work 24/7.
I can see more jobs lost to robots ........ and this has been flagged up by the House of Lords Digital Skills Committee who are estimating 35% of current jobs are "at risk"

Could have been posted in the 1830's, the 1900's, the 60's and the 70's that.

Well it couldnt, cos the internet would have had to be invented, but you get the point!

 

[Milk]

Are they, though? Are they more useful than a younger person?

There are two bulls in a field at the top of the hill. One is an old bull and the other a youngster. At the bottom is a herd of 30 young cows all in a state of some "delicacy".

"Let's run down the hill and make love to 3 or 4 of the girls!" says the younger one pawing at the ground in his eagerness to get started.

"No," says the old, wise one "Let's walk down the hill and make love to all of them"

 

[ilikecheese]

Well I actually think unions have historically been a power of good for working conditions and pay over the years, in my own businesses I encouraged union membership.

You might wonder why? Well negotiation is a two way process. Not only do we negotiate wages and employment conditions but many other things such as productivity, quality control levels, discipline and dispute mechanisms, company strategy, staffing numbers and recruitment.

Don't want it to sound too ideal as it's not always and negotiations are tough on both sides. However it sets an agreement for the year, something which ensures the company meets its objectives and the staff are well paid, motivated and want to work where they work.

I agree that historically they have done a lot of good for employees and employee rights. There is no questioning that.

However, when wage demands increase the cost of services/products it's only good for the union. The American Auto industry got a fat slap in the face because of this...as wages went up the products got worse and worse to make them affordable. Laying off those fat salaries was the only way to save the industry...and it basically destroyed Detroit.

Unions do have a place...and they do a lot of good. However, when it gets to extortion level demands, that's where I have a problem.

Several years ago (~2001), I was hired by a contractor to help him with a remodelling job. He said I needed to be quiet about it, because he was supposed to be hiring union labor. He paid me $25/hr to do the most menial crap. He said that's what he'd have had to pay a union worker. That left a very bad taste in my mouth...$25/hr to run a freakin nailgun and screwdriver putting up some slat wall. Ridiculous.

 

[Milk]

Could have been posted in the 1830's, the 1900's, the 60's and the 70's that.

Well it couldnt, cos the internet would have had to be invented, but you get the point!

Up skilling and retraining .......... happens all the time. We are in danger of becoming a nation of trainers and trainees

 

[The Esk]

However, when wage demands increase the cost of services/products it's only good for the union. The American Auto industry got a fat slap in the face because of this...as wages went up the products got worse and worse to make them affordable. Laying off those fat salaries was the only way to save the industry...and it basically destroyed Detroit.

Wage demands were only part of the story though mate. Similar things happened here, and actually it was as much to do with poor management, lack of investment and appalling political mis-management that destroyed manufacturing jobs in the 1970's and 80's.

Look at the success of the British car industry today, built on high technology, and a highly motivated, skilled workforce. It can be done, but it requires all parties to co-operate, workers, shareholders and Government. That certainly never happened in Detroit sadly.

 

[roydo]

Up skilling and retraining .......... happens all the time. We are in danger of becoming a nation of trainers and trainees

We are in danger of ignoring what we are bloody good at, that is for sure. Agriculture/fishing being ones I am sure you would agree with.

 

[Milk]

Wage demands were only part of the story though mate. Similar things happened here, and actually it was as much to do with poor management, lack of investment and appalling political mis-management that destroyed manufacturing jobs in the 1970's and 80's.

Look at the success of the British car industry today, built on high technology, and a highly motivated, skilled workforce. It can be done, but it requires all parties to co-operate, workers, shareholders and Government. That certainly never happened in Detroit sadly.

I think fostering pride and "ownership" in the work you are engaged in are absolute keys. Always instructive to watch "Undercover Boss" to see how higher management can & does get divorced from the shopfloor.

 

[Milk]

We are in danger of ignoring what we are bloody good at, that is for sure. Agriculture/fishing being ones I am sure you would agree with.

Absolutely ... and it's often Government (of any hue) meddling for the sake of it that cause the problems - being seen to be "doing something".

Fortunately some of our engineering skills have survived to fight again otherwise there would be nowhere to send Ed's apprentices ....

 

[rascal]

Is so right. It is quite amazing what can happen to the (mutual) success of a business when management, owners, and workforce all pull in the same direction, all share in the success, and all feel thay have contributed to that.

Waitrose and John Lewis are a pretty good example. As is Esk Ltd.

That's the norm in Germany. We should certainly become more German, just copy Germany, in everything they do. Life for Britain would be far better.

 

[Joey66]

There is no employment law in this country - from day one Industrial Tribunials have always been set up that an employee is guilty and has to prove his innocence over his job dispute. Where as a common criminal is innocent until proven guilty -
That's what I learnt as a manager on my NEBSS corse in the 1980's
Have things got any better under this Government?
I very much doubt it!