The EU deal

[Rob17896]

I think we'll end up with a compromise government again, which incidentally I prefer as I didn't like most of the left wing/ right wing governments we've had. I like sensible centre of the road with a strong opposition. We have the wherewithal to fashion a decent country, but we expend so much political energy on Europe that we never seem to address our own real issues. Big is not always beautiful, the UK is big enough to have to deal with. You know my views, I want out of this European superstate nonsense, but not out of Europe. We can be best mates without being instructed how to live our lives or run our country, we've done it before........

Agree with your politics Pete, just think that scenario is more likely within. Also think PR would help.

 

[Clint Planet]

I don't do incoherent.

 

[Cypher]

Pete. The people who cant get a job here do not believe they can. Their parents have not worked and it becomes the norm. Then there are the goons who believe 'menial' tasks are not for them Work is work. People like the polish who work here are a brilliant example of people who get stuck in. Bosnians as well. Briiliant people and fantastic to deal with.

I have already posted this but it obviously needs to be posted again. What you are saying just isn't true. The reason why people here don't do those jobs is because the working conditions and pay are so poor. That's a sign of a society making progress. Not something we should be complaining about. Increasing the population to allow company bosses to exploit people on our home soil is not a good thing.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/what-working-undercover-factory-taught-me-about-eu-migration-1561735

 

[Rob17896]

I have already posted this but it obviously needs to be posted again. What you are saying just isn't true. The reason why people here don't do those jobs is because the working conditions and pay are so poor. That's a sign of a society making progress. Not something we should be complaining about. Increasing the population to allow company bosses to exploit people on our home soil is not a good thing.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/what-working-undercover-factory-taught-me-about-eu-migration-1561735

Dont agree that immigration means exploitation. A lack of regulation allows that. I think the EU drives standards up. But we want the same thing so thats a start.

 

[Cypher]

You have to invest in society and industry. We invest in property speculation and money laundering through the city. This country is a shambles built on sand.

Why do you think we invest in property?

Because the house prices continue to go up because the population continues to go up. That's one of the main reasons why the elites love immigration. If more house prices go up the more they make from the mortgages that we are then forced to take out to buy them. The banks win win.

Unfortunately what it will mean for the common man is we will increasingly spend more and more of our income on housing living in smaller and smaller places.

 

[Cypher]

Dont agree that immigration means exploitation. A lack of regulation allows that. I think the EU drives standards up. But we want the same thing so thats a start.

Regulation is expensive and inefficient making it difficult for smaller companies to compete which in turn then lowers competition. Workers benefit more when companies are forced to compete with each other for employees.

If we lived in a full employment world would employees tolerate zero hour contracts? No of course not. They do so because that's the only work they can find and employers get away with it because there's always someone else desperate enough to do the work.

 

[Rob17896]

Why do you think we invest in property?

Because the house prices continue to go up because the population continues to go up. That's one of the main reasons why the elites love immigration. If more house prices go up the more they make from the mortgages that we are then forced to take out to buy them. The banks win win.

Unfortunately what it will mean for the common man is we will increasingly spend more and more of our income on housing living in smaller and smaller places.

Property can increase like everything else according to the money supply. If you allow 35 year mortgages and six times income they will increase. If you allow three times over 25 years then that will put a lid on it. I agree totally it is terrible but immigration is not the big effect, lack of financial services regulation is. Property prices have enslaved the population and it has to be sorted. Anyway goodnight!

 

[Rob17896]

Regulation is expensive and inefficient making it difficult for smaller companies to compete which in turn then lowers competition. Workers benefit more when companies are forced to compete with each other for employees.

If we lived in a full employment world would employees tolerate zero hour contracts? No of course not. They do so because that's the only work they can find and employers get away with it because there's always someone else desperate enough to do the work.

Mate. Without regulation employers can do what they like. Regulation just means rules and we need them.

 

[Seathestars]

Just a couple of weeks ago Dave was accusing the London mayor of sharing a stage with ISIS sympathisers, today he is on the remain campaign trail with the same guy.
I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

 

[Hibbertinho]

I'm not saying we would get a favorable deal in the long term. We would make a deal that would suit both sides. In the meantime we would agree to continue albeit with no voice but given our limited voice that's not much of a concern.

It would neither be paradise or Armageddon. It just isn't a big reason to vote one way or the other.

So... if you say that there is nothing in it in terms of the economic argument (debatable) then what reasons are there? I know there are some - I just want to hear them from you.

I don't do incoherent. Sarcasm maybe. Which bits of our EU membership will we miss do you reckon. Which bits do you feel we will not be able to replicate or replace. How exactly will we suffer and which companies will do so.

Trade with the Eu consists of less than 10% of our economy. Why do you believe that the cost of membership and the diktats from Brussells in terms of regulation and laws are worth it.

What price would you put on having democratic control of your own country.......

Hm, if we accept even momentarily that 10% is a small enough amount to disregard (NER-NERRR...) :

You are presumably just talking about goods (half of UK exports go to the EU). I agree that mostly this would be mostly okay to renegotiate (if all that article 50 stuff goes through swimmingly, which isn't a given) for the auto-industry, likewise with aerospace and engineering etc.

But I believe there are a lot of long-term questions over FDI and manufacturing, which are subject to a lot more long-winded mechanisms than your arguments are giving any credit for. There will also be an initial period of great instability in all sectors.

Services - mainly, the current financial center of Europe in the Smog-tropolis - this is where our access looks to be restricted. Why don't you explain to me what possible reason the EU-27 would have to not try and restrict access to the market, and bring some of that lovin' into the euro area?

The EU needs reforming but we stand to lose a lot more than we stand to gain, and I believe the risk is being downplayed massively here. I think you overstate the clout that the UK has as a trading partner, and are not grasping the uncertainty surrounding the politics of this situation.

The racist card.....oh dear...... Other countries have trade arrangements with the Eu without having free movement arrangements......

...Yes, they do. They're the ones that aren't in the EU and are subject to tariffs? Do you understand that aspect of any potential bargain? I won't make reference to the British ex-pats abroad and the fantastic contributions they will make. Or the countless studies that overwhelmingly point to the fact that we get a net contribution from EU migrants, since you're likely entrenched in your thoughts on that one.

 

[Cypher]

Property can increase like everything else according to the money supply. If you allow 35 year mortgages and six times income they will increase. If you allow three times over 25 years then that will put a lid on it. I agree totally it is terrible but immigration is not the big effect, lack of financial services regulation is. Property prices have enslaved the population and it has to be sorted. Anyway goodnight!

I agree that the increasing the money supply worsens the situation but it's also a supply and demand issue. The increase in immigration fuels the demand and the supply is fueled by the money.

 

[Ratkiller]

It can. But we need a strong government I agree. Our main parties need to sort themselves out

They don't have to. We just keep going round in circles.

I will leave you to Boris and the other neo liberal shits who will grind your bones for a bit more profit. Enjoy your democracy.

TTIP?

 

[Hibbertinho]

Why is it only the remain people who keep bringing up xenophobia, racism, personal insults, insulting labels (neoliberal shits) etc.......

Because the vote leave camp attracts those sorts of people, and has Nigel Farage as a figurehead? I don't think all Brexiters are though, that would be a sweeping generalisation. Apologies for insinuating you were racist, if you aren't. Was just going off that weird little rant about Albanian men.

 

[Ratkiller]

Because the vote leave camp attracts those sorts of people, and has Nigel Farage as a figurehead? I don't think all Brexiters are though, that would be a sweeping generalisation. Apologies for insinuating you were racist, if you aren't. Was just going off that weird little rant about Albanian men.

Is it not a fair point that we acknowledge the differences within Europe?

 

[Cypher]

Mate. Without regulation employers can do what they like. Regulation just means rules and we need them.

They really can't because employees aren't slaves. Basically if another job is available with better working conditions then the employee just goes there.

That's why you have seen worker conditions improve so drastically in places like China. Nothing to do with regulation and in fact I don't have a link to the study but I remember it said that throughout history in the world worker conditions increase faster in low regulation environments than high regulation environments.

I used to be for strong regulation and in many cases still am but when I started reading more about it I can see the other side of the argument.

I'm still not 100% one way or the other. It still feels like an academic argument that I can't fully trust.