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The EU deal

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peteblue said:
I've not really seen too much of this tbh.....who's involved ?.....
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Everyone from parts of the RMT/SWP, Labour leave, Green leaves, out & proud (LGBT) amongst others. The green party leavers twitter is very active.

They have a Lexit the movie coming out and an Labour Leave led advert targettting Labour voters to vote leave.
 
peteblue said:
You keep saying that the Eu has the upper hand and that they may give us a take it or leave it offer. Why do you believe this is so? Why is it that you cannot understand that it is in the interests of the UK and the EU to do a deal? Why can you not fathom that if the EU were to be so stupid as to try to bully us, we too could just pull up the drawbridge and let Germany sell it's BMW's and Mercs to Albania or Slovakia?. Why do you think that the best tactic for someone leaving a club is for the club to punish them and show the world what a petty and obnoxious club it must be to only convince people to remain by threats and punishment. If that's how they would behave then I would definitely not wish to be part of it. If you are happy with the thought of living under threat then good luck with it......
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Because that's the rules..

Article 50 – the only established legal way to leave the EU. Once triggered, there is no turning back, and it will exclude the UK from key decisions as well as the final vote. It leaves the EU in charge of the timetable during two years of negotiations, following which the UK could easily be presented with a ‘take it or leave it’ deal. UK lawyers helped draw up the agreement.

As for punishing the UK, that's simply a backwards way of looking at things. If Brexit opens up opportunities for others in the EU, as a member of the EU, paying their way, they will have every right to veto any deals if they aren't in their country's best interests. Trade between EU members will always come 1st. It's not about getting one over on the Brits, or tactics, or anything underhand, it's about being part of a Union. Its what we've done so well out of since joining.
 

daylightrobber said:
Because that's the rules..

Article 50 – the only established legal way to leave the EU. Once triggered, there is no turning back, and it will exclude the UK from key decisions as well as the final vote. It leaves the EU in charge of the timetable during two years of negotiations, following which the UK could easily be presented with a ‘take it or leave it’ deal. UK lawyers helped draw up the agreement.

As for punishing the UK, that's simply a backwards way of looking at things. If Brexit opens up opportunities for others in the EU, as a member of the EU, paying their way, they will have every right to veto any deals if they aren't in their country's best interests. Trade between EU members will always come 1st. It's not about getting one over on the Brits, or tactics, or anything underhand, it's about being part of a Union. Its what we've done so well out of since joining.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-eu-elites-for-eurosceptic-revolt-and-brexit/

La Tribune reports that one camp in Paris is pushing for a harsh line to punish Britain – even to the point of denying the UK a Norwegian-style package in the European Economic Area, should it opt for that course – in order to ensure that Brexit fails so spectacularly that no other country dares to follow suit.

But this would tip the eurozone itself back into a deep economic downturn at a time when it is already in deflation with severe unemployment, and several states are on the cusp of a debt-trap. Italy’s finance minister Pier Carlo Padoan has pledged that his country will not adopt a “punishing attitude”.

It is hard to see what would be left of Europe’s moral appeal if it acted on such an impulse, effectively keeping nations locked in by means of threats and fear. Cooler heads in Paris and other EU capitals are already warning that a reflex of this kind smacks of fanaticism and would compound the damage.

Far from dampening support for Marine Le Pen’s Front National or Geert Wilder’s Freedom Party in the Netherlands, it might equally enflame eurosceptic revolt.

Germany wants a calibrated approach that raps Britain across the knuckles, just enough to hurt but not enough to blight strategic relations or to hurt a lucrative market for German cars. “The process of divorce must not be too easy or too pleasant, or others may be tempted,” said Mr Grant.

How Germany aims to reconcile its conflicting objectives is a mystery.

Here's a decent concise article regarding this. If anything happens it won't be that bad. Not a reason to remain.
 
Yid4life said:
Good thread.

I'm am a 'Leaver'. I think the left alliance (Lexit) is doing an excellent job of putting across socialist reasons for leaving.

I have been very impressed by them.
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Exactly mate.
Without getting in to an arguement with anyone, I just don't understand this "left/right" debate. I come from a traditionally left background, but that doesn't mean I've always voted labour, far from it. If I don't like the party that's in power and I want them removed, I simply vote against them at the next available elections. This is what confuses me when people who want to remain say that the tories will have even more power if we vote out, absolute nonsense. We have had democracy in this country long before the EU came along, and if we don't like what the government is doing...we vote them out. That's what we've always done and will continue to do.
It's beginning to sound like tribalism, all this left wing right wing arguement and I'm just going with what I feel will be right when I vote. As someone has already said, labour were always traditionally anti-Eu but at the last general election they told the country that they would not even offer a referendum... Maybe that's why they lost the election..who knows? But Cameron, either wisely or out of sheer desperation, promised one and what's happening to the tories may well have happened to labour if they'd have bothered to listen to the population.
I just want to get back to the system where we have our own true democracy, where parties are held accountable by their own people, and we run our own affairs.
 
daylightrobber said:
Because that's the rules..

Article 50 – the only established legal way to leave the EU. Once triggered, there is no turning back, and it will exclude the UK from key decisions as well as the final vote. It leaves the EU in charge of the timetable during two years of negotiations, following which the UK could easily be presented with a ‘take it or leave it’ deal. UK lawyers helped draw up the agreement.

As for punishing the UK, that's simply a backwards way of looking at things. If Brexit opens up opportunities for others in the EU, as a member of the EU, paying their way, they will have every right to veto any deals if they aren't in their country's best interests. Trade between EU members will always come 1st. It's not about getting one over on the Brits, or tactics, or anything underhand, it's about being part of a Union. Its what we've done so well out of since joining.
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You just cannot stop putting the 'take it or leave it option' out there can you. We are a Sovereign nation with a permanent seat on the UN, with a right to veto anything that the EU may politically want in the future. We are the 5th largest economy and the 2nd largest contributor to NATO resources. We are 1 of only 2 nuclear powers in Europe.We are members of the Commonwealth and will have an option to trade with anyone. We buy more from the EU than they do from us....but you seem to think that we will be led by some veto from one of these other 27 countries into a 'take it or leave it deal'........again, good luck with that......
 

Gladystweet said:
Exactly mate.
Without getting in to an arguement with anyone, I just don't understand this "left/right" debate. I come from a traditionally left background, but that doesn't mean I've always voted labour, far from it. If I don't like the party that's in power and I want them removed, I simply vote against them at the next available elections. This is what confuses me when people who want to remain say that the tories will have even more power if we vote out, absolute nonsense. We have had democracy in this country long before the EU came along, and if we don't like what the government is doing...we vote them out. That's what we've always done and will continue to do.
It's beginning to sound like tribalism, all this left wing right wing arguement and I'm just going with what I feel will be right when I vote. As someone has already said, labour were always traditionally anti-Eu but at the last general election they told the country that they would not even offer a referendum... Maybe that's why they lost the election..who knows? But Cameron, either wisely or out of sheer desperation, promised one and what's happening to the tories may well have happened to labour if they'd have bothered to listen to the population.
I just want to get back to the system where we have our own true democracy, where parties are held accountable by their own people, and we run our own affairs.
Click to expand...

Exactly......
 
Cypher said:
If that's the case then explain Himmler's lettter to Hitler and Hitler's response.

http://ww2history.com/key_moments/Holocaust/Himmler_writes_crucial_memo

"Also significant is that Himmler states, in the context of the overall population of Poland, that ‘physically exterminating a people’ was ‘fundamentally unGerman’. An opinion, of course, that he was to change within the next two years.

Himmler gave his memo to Hitler who pronounced it ‘good and correct’. But, of course, the plan to send the Jews to Africa would never be realized – not least because it assumed that the British would shortly make peace, thus enabling passenger ships to travel south unhindered."
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Well, for a start you have Hitler's statement in January 1939 to the Czech foreign minister that "Our Jews will be destroyed", and a statement nine days after that where he said that "if war came, the end result would be... the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe". Then you have what they did in Poland during 1939, or what large parts of the party did in 1938 during Kristallnacht. You also have the example of the planning for Barbarossa, where Heydrich made sure that the rear areas were under his control and made it very clear to the Einsatzgruppen leaders in early 1941 of the "heavy tasks" that would be required of them. Or you have the actual attempts at expulsion, upon which minute amounts of resources were spent compared to what was being spent on the camp system. Then you have the open killing of the mentally ill and other undesirables during the T4 campaigns. Most telling of all though, you have the fact that - once the decision for genocide was officially reached - they were able to put it into effect very quickly, especially given all the other pressures that the state was under at the time.

You are right that some people supported / claimed to support an alternative policy, but I think its telling that the one policy that emerged in the end was the one that had most of the money spent on it beforehand, and the one for which an awful lot of the documentary evidence was carefully (but not completely) removed.
 
I am generally centre-right but have voted Lib Dem & Green in the past. This issue transcends the left/right debate. I have been very impressed with the Lexit campaign & it has genuinely made me re-evaluate my politics on certain issues.

I agree with the Lexit notion that the way the Conservatives have handled the referendum has been horrendous & will massively back-fire on them.
If we stay in a massive proportion of their supporters will have been alienated. If we vote out, their leadership will have to stand down surely.
 

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