The EU deal

[tsubaki]

Of course the Americans have been involved in keeping outside threats outside.
But can you imaging Germany invading France through Belgium? Or Italy invading Greece? There has been peace between member states. And their solidarity keeps trouble away, outside the EU borders.

Which is not to say that Ukraine was not a major feck up.

Thats not because of the EU, though.

For a start, everyone who matters is in NATO anyway, so they are all allied to each other and would be if they weren't in the EU. Secondly, so massive was the US (and a not inconsiderable UK) military presence during the Cold War that most of the EU states didn't spend the amounts on their military that they used to, and so the armies that the French, Germans and the rest used to have no longer exist.

Finally there is the point that the EU, at least in its current state, is far more vulnerable than comparative states like the US, Russia or the Chinese are. It has no unified military. Its border security still boils down to individual states, specifically the least well off individual states who have strong incentives not to hold people at / on the border. The political class running the show is composed of most nations B and C teams, at best. There is no effective central authority, and the most powerful nations still acts in their own interests. There is very little, if any, ability for the citizens to change things politically and the Parliament provides no oversight at all.

I am a pro-European, but we should certainly leave unless the EU very quickly indicates what ever closer union is going to look like, and when it is going to be delivered. At present, we have a worse system than we would have if the EU were all separate nations; this cannot continue.

 

[magicjuan]

It's the principle really because I don't vote for people in Brussels. But as I said, I'm not well enough informed about this issue because I feel Cameron has rushed it straight after a renegotiation that no one has had time to disect, and also all politicians are just shouting ''we must stay!!!'' or ''we must go!!!' without ever stopping to give any reason.

It's bad enough that the politicians on the mainland aren't giving me anything to go off, how do you expect me to get informed listening to my reps over here in N Ireland lol

I feel it's important I use my vote for something like this, but I don't feel I'm going to be able to use it properly from an informed position.

You're not supposed to be informed. That would be democratic and dangerous

 

[magicjuan]

Thats not because of the EU, though.

For a start, everyone who matters is in NATO anyway, so they are all allied to each other and would be if they weren't in the EU. Secondly, so massive was the US (and a not inconsiderable UK) military presence during the Cold War that most of the EU states didn't spend the amounts on their military that they used to, and so the armies that the French, Germans and the rest used to have no longer exist.

Finally there is the point that the EU, at least in its current state, is far more vulnerable than comparative states like the US, Russia or the Chinese are. It has no unified military. Its border security still boils down to individual states, specifically the least well off individual states who have strong incentives not to hold people at / on the border. The political class running the show is composed of most nations B and C teams, at best. There is no effective central authority, and the most powerful nations still acts in their own interests. There is very little, if any, ability for the citizens to change things politically and the Parliament provides no oversight at all.

I am a pro-European, but we should certainly leave unless the EU very quickly indicates what ever closer union is going to look like, and when it is going to be delivered. At present, we have a worse system than we would have if the EU were all separate nations; this cannot continue.

The are long running proposals for an EU 'army' and police force. The main reasons there hasn't been major inter europe wars is because the people who fund them have been busy manipulating the EU. Why conquer one people when you can control a continent?

 

[peteblue]

Express....

Britain's upcoming in-out vote on Europe has today started to weigh on markets, with the FTSE 100 falling by 1.5 per cent this morning.

But Europe's top markets are taking a bigger hit, amid fears Britain's exit from Europe would have significant consequences for the union.

Germany's top market the DAX plunged by 2.4 per cent, while France's CAC dropped by 2.17 per cent and Spain's IBE was down by 2.6 per cent.

Michael Hewson, chief market analyst at trading platform CMC Markets, said: "The belief that the Euro area can carry on regardless is to coin a phrase used by the Prime Minister recently “for the birds”.

"The effect on confidence in Europe could shatter as well, if the continents second largest economy concludes the current arrangement is unworkable, and votes to leave...........

 

[peteblue]

Express...

With Britons due to decide on June 23 whether to exit the EU or remain tied to Brussels, there are growing signs other voters across the continent are craving their own chance to leave the crisis-stricken union.

In a new opinion poll in the Netherlands, a majority of voters said they backed the country having its own in/out referendum on EU membership, similar to the UK vote.

And Czech Republic prime minister Bohuslav Sobotka has warned if Britons do decide to leave the EU, a ‘Czexit’ could follow.

 

[Tubey]

Pete, you're quoting the Daily Express mate.

Are you OK?

 

[peteblue]

Pete, you're quoting the Daily Express mate.

Are you OK?

Just bored........

 

[mitchell1996]

we need to leave to get control of our borders
people dont realise that just because we wouldnt be in EU doesn't mean we couldnt still trade with europe anyway

 

[carlos21]

we need to leave to get control of our borders
people dont realise that just because we wouldnt be in EU doesn't mean we couldnt still trade with europe anyway

I agree with that point just let them go on with.

 

[daylightrobber]

we need to leave to get control of our borders
people dont realise that just because we wouldnt be in EU doesn't mean we couldnt still trade with europe anyway

You say that as if it there would be no difference in the way we trade. It is very naive to think that way. It's not just selling and purchasing of goods. It's supply chains, expertise, competition, regulations. None of it is guaranteed to work favourably for anyone on the outside. And what we really need control of is our attitude to foreigners when times are hard. Immigrants are not the issue.

 

[mitchell1996]

You say that as if it there would be no difference in the way we trade. It is very naive to think that way. It's not just selling and purchasing of goods. It's supply chains, expertise, competition, regulations. None of it is guaranteed to work favourably for anyone on the outside. And what we really need control of is our attitude to foreigners when times are hard. Immigrants are not the issue.

how dare i say we need to control our borders, what was i thinking?!?!

 

[peteblue]

how dare i say we need to control our borders, what was i thinking?!?!

Silly boy.......

Downing Street was forced to admit a mistake today after wrongly naming a decorated military general as a supporter of the campaign to keep Britain in the EU.

General Sir Michael Rose was one of 13 former military commanders apparently signed up to a letter to the Daily Telegraph which warned a Brexit would open Britain to 'grave security threats' from Russia and Islamic State.

But it emerged today Sir Michael had not backed the letter and in a briefing, a No 10 spokesman admitted a 'mistake was made' in his inclusion..........

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

General Sir Michael Rose was one of 13 former military commanders apparently signed up to a letter to the Daily Telegraph which warned a Brexit would open Britain to 'grave security threats' from Russia and Islamic State.

But it emerged today Sir Michael had not backed the letter and in a briefing, a No 10 spokesman admitted a 'mistake was made' in his inclusion..........

Torygraph A.K.A 'Camoron's lickspittles'....As long as their arses face the ground they'll never get it right

 

[carlos21]

Torygraph A.K.A 'Camoron's lickspittles'....As long as their arses face the ground they'll never get it right

I agree with you there mate.

 

[dandydan]

Silly boy.......

Downing Street was forced to admit a mistake today after wrongly naming a decorated military general as a supporter of the campaign to keep Britain in the EU.

General Sir Michael Rose was one of 13 former military commanders apparently signed up to a letter to the Daily Telegraph which warned a Brexit would open Britain to 'grave security threats' from Russia and Islamic State.

But it emerged today Sir Michael had not backed the letter and in a briefing, a No 10 spokesman admitted a 'mistake was made' in his inclusion..........

It's the expansionist EU that's been poking the bear with a stick