The Moyes Era

[BigFred#9]

Three full days have elapsed since Wembley and all is well in the wonderful world of Moyes F.C. again.

The club which has spent more seasons in the top flight of their country's league than any other team in the world would be screwed and wind up relegation certainties if the Moyesiah was to succumb to one of the myriad offers he received to manage elsewhere.

Saturday, mot to mention Anfield in March, never happened.....the memory has been expunged from those for whom there is not one other manager in the entire universe whom could keep the Grand Old Team in the dizzy heights of mid table in the EPL.

The Kopites know more about our club than many thousands of us do.

Because they, like the In Moyes We Trust brigade, are ecstatic at the prospect of "ten more years".

Wonderful ..... and spot on mate!

 

[njligernj]

Who was it posted all those links to team spending tables the other day? One of them was only a few mil more than us over a ten year period didn't they?

Not sure I understand how this is an anti-Moyes point. One team spent only slightly more than we did (aside from the others who spent a lot more) and they likely finished in a lower position over those ten years? Is it just that they didn't get relegated? For the record there aren't many teams with a few mil more than us on the 10 year (directly above us on the list is WBA who spent 15m more than we did ... and also got relegated). On the five year list however Swansea are 1.5m above us so that might be the team you're thinking about.

Looking at the five year table we are 18th overall (if you include teams which spent more but got relegated -- 15th in net spend for current Prem teams) out of 28 teams. (I looked at 5 year for this; we're 17th overall including relegated teams on the 10 year list so things aren't drastically different there.)

There are just three teams who have a lower net spend than us and have not been relegated in the last five years. However one of those three teams is Arsenal who spend a load of money on wages and would have spent more money in total so you could argue there are only two teams which have spent less money who have not been relegated.

Our per season net spend is the lowest of any team which has not been relegated aside from Blackburn (in serious trouble this year) Wigan (near the drop zone but will probably survive) and Arsenal (spend so much on wages their overall spend is far higher than ours). That's it.

Now, I will grant that wages are an important factor (I disregarded Arsenal because they have spent more than us in wages) so it's only fair to include wages for Everton too. However I don't have access to that right now. I'm sure it's out there and would welcome input. However QPR for instance, who are only three spots above us in net spend, have spent almost 30m net than we have. So the wages aren't going to be closing many gaps. We might catch Swansea and West Brom (1.5m and 8m more respectively) but the other teams are probably too far ahead for us to catch them in net spend + wages. It closes the gap a little maybe but I don't think it changes the results that meaningfully (although I may be wrong as I haven't done the maths).

Update: I found a wages table from 09/10. We're ninth. Villa were higher then as were Portsmouth (and the usual suspects). Sunderland and West Ham were the same as us. Fulham was 5m less, Blackburn 7m less, Stoke 9m less. The teams significantly lower in wages mostly got relegated that year or subsequently. Wages might push us to 10th-14th place (although it's not only us who would move up -- Arsenal would also move up significantly too of course).

I'm not picking on whomever mentioned Stoke earlier because a lot of people have said similar things to this: there is this idea that a team like Stoke doesn't spend much more than us when in fact they have spent 60m to our 4m in the past five years. Sunderland 70m. Villa 70m. Bolton 50m. Fulham 46m. Wolves and QPR 35m. Incidentally that is not a list of overwhelmingly successful football clubs in the last 5 years. Now you can of course still want Moyes replaced but it's really amazing how much some of these teams have spent (and wasted). Sunderland in particular have spent a massive amount (and remember they are not a team with lower wages -- at least not on the 09/10 list) to try to close the gap with us (and depending on how this year shakes out they aren't there yet).

I've probably just wasted my time as I doubt anyone will ever change their mind. Looking at Sunderland however IMO that's what a good manager buys you. They have to spend 70m to become slightly worse than we are from spending 4m.

 

[Neiler]

Well, that was a seven day wonder.

No. Less.

Three full days have elapsed since Wembley and all is well in the wonderful world of Moyes F.C. again.

Have we truly become this blind!

The club which has spent more seasons in the top flight of their country's league than any other team in the world would be screwed and wind up relegation certainties if the Moyesiah was to succumb to one of the myriad offers he received to manage elsewherre.

Im sure many people from pompeii said "dont worry that thing hasnt erupted in millons of years" when someone said the mountain "looks a little smokey"

Saturday, mot to mention Anfield in March, never happened.....the memory has been expunged from those for whom there is not one other manager in the entire universe whom could keep the Grand Old Team in the dizzy heights of mid table in the EPL.

Thats slightly Allanis Morsette mate, i agree though people have short memories. But i agree i cant think of another manager who would keep us up in three full seasons.

The Kopites know more about our club than many thousands of us do.

Thats slightly super fanish mate, no doubt your super ambitious as well and wont settle for mediocre, doesnt lack irony either.

I think your first mistake was actually listening to a Kopite and giving credence to any opinion they have in relation to football - never mind bigging them up over your own. Your cruel your just encouraging them.

Because they, like the In Moyes We Trust brigade, are ecstatic at the prospect of "ten more years".

Pretty ecstatic as it goes - not that i think it will happen like, i think he is of his rocker if he doesnt move onto a better oppurtunity.

Roll on January next year when the season starts in earnest for us.

​Marches!

 

[Neiler]

Not sure I understand how this is an anti-Moyes point. One team spent only slightly more than we did (aside from the others who spent a lot more) and they likely finished in a lower position over those ten years? Is it just that they didn't get relegated? For the record there aren't many teams with a few mil more than us on the 10 year (directly above us on the list is WBA who spent 15m more than we did ... and also got relegated). On the five year list however Swansea are 1.5m above us so that might be the team you're thinking about.

Looking at the five year table we are 18th overall (if you include teams which spent more but got relegated -- 15th in net spend for current Prem teams) out of 28 teams. (I looked at 5 year for this; we're 17th overall including relegated teams on the 10 year list so things aren't drastically different there.)

There are just three teams who have a lower net spend than us and have not been relegated in the last five years. However one of those three teams is Arsenal who spend a load of money on wages and would have spent more money in total so you could argue there are only two teams which have spent less money who have not been relegated.

Our per season net spend is the lowest of any team which has not been relegated aside from Blackburn (in serious trouble this year) Wigan (near the drop zone but will probably survive) and Arsenal (spend so much on wages their overall spend is far higher than ours). That's it.

Now, I will grant that wages are an important factor (I disregarded Arsenal because they have spent more than us in wages) so it's only fair to include wages for Everton too. However I don't have access to that right now. I'm sure it's out there and would welcome input. However QPR for instance, who are only three spots above us in net spend, have spent almost 30m net than we have. So the wages aren't going to be closing many gaps. We might catch Swansea and West Brom (1.5m and 8m more respectively) but the other teams are probably too far ahead for us to catch them in net spend + wages. It closes the gap a little maybe but I don't think it changes the results that meaningfully (although I may be wrong as I haven't done the maths).

Update: I found a wages table from 09/10. We're ninth. Villa were higher then as were Portsmouth (and the usual suspects). Sunderland and West Ham were the same as us. Fulham was 5m less, Blackburn 7m less, Stoke 9m less. The teams significantly lower in wages mostly got relegated that year or subsequently. Wages might push us to 10th-14th place (although it's not only us who would move up -- Arsenal would also move up significantly too of course).

I'm not picking on whomever mentioned Stoke earlier because a lot of people have said similar things to this: there is this idea that a team like Stoke doesn't spend much more than us when in fact they have spent 60m to our 4m in the past five years. Sunderland 70m. Villa 70m. Bolton 50m. Fulham 46m. Wolves and QPR 35m. Incidentally that is not a list of overwhelmingly successful football clubs in the last 5 years. Now you can of course still want Moyes replaced but it's really amazing how much some of these teams have spent (and wasted). Sunderland in particular have spent a massive amount (and remember they are not a team with lower wages -- at least not on the 09/10 list) to try to close the gap with us (and depending on how this year shakes out they aren't there yet).

I've probably just wasted my time as I doubt anyone will ever change their mind. Looking at Sunderland however IMO that's what a good manager buys you. They have to spend 70m to become slightly worse than we are from spending 4m.

I worked it out mate that pound for pound only Wenger/Arsenal is better then Moyes/Everton, when wages, net spend and debt is factored in, id admit Wenger is the better manager - interestingly i think you would see similar posts about Wenger on there message boards as we see about Davey on here.

I read something crazy during the week, that Sunderland have only finished in the top 8 twice since 2000, crazy when you think of what they spent.

 

[Philw]

Not sure I understand how this is an anti-Moyes point. One team spent only slightly more than we did (aside from the others who spent a lot more) and they likely finished in a lower position over those ten years? Is it just that they didn't get relegated? For the record there aren't many teams with a few mil more than us on the 10 year (directly above us on the list is WBA who spent 15m more than we did ... and also got relegated). On the five year list however Swansea are 1.5m above us so that might be the team you're thinking about. ...

It wasn't so much anti-Moyes as trying to suggest that there are other managers who have spent similar amounts and 'survived'. Obviously from your figures that's only a few, and they are struggling, but that's looking solely at the EPL, and if you consider teams like Blackburn, I'm sure they'd be much higher up the table without board intervention. Also, while this point is kind of moot, in that we couldn't have spent the money if we didn't make the sales, if you take out the Rooney and Lescott fees our net spend would be much higher. Like I said, we could never have spent the money without selling them, but how many of those teams near us have made £55m of sales off an initial investment of ~£4m?

 

[Arteta2391]

If we can buy a 15 million player, surely we can buy a 20-25 million world class beater. But oh yeah, Everton doesn't do that.

 

[Neiler]

It wasn't so much anti-Moyes as trying to suggest that there are other managers who have spent similar amounts and 'survived'. Obviously from your figures that's only a few, and they are struggling, but that's looking solely at the EPL, and if you consider teams like Blackburn, I'm sure they'd be much higher up the table without board intervention. Also, while this point is kind of moot, in that we couldn't have spent the money if we didn't make the sales, if you take out the Rooney and Lescott fees our net spend would be much higher. Like I said, we could never have spent the money without selling them, but how many of those teams near us have made £55m of sales off an initial investment of ~£4m?

Id hazard a guess, none bar Wenger could match Moyes, buying low selling high mate - you then match that of what you spend and its net spend.

He and Wenger are the best - simples.

 

[Philw]

Id hazard a guess, none bar Wenger could match Moyes, buying low selling high mate - you then match that of what you spend and its net spend.

He and Wenger are the best - simples.

For sure. But Rooney was pure luck, and Lescott was good judgement/luck (in that ManC where willing to spend so much on him). However for picking out bargain gems there are few I know of like Moyes, that's for sure. That says as much about my knowledge of other managers' transfer dealings as anything tho, I'm sure Lambert, Rodgers etc haven't spent that much either and they've also got some pretty useful players. I guess my point is while there might not be anyone as good as Moyes in this department, there are people who are not too far off, who might bring more in other areas....

 

[Khalekan]

This whole argument is moot, though, innit.

The Moyesiah is potentially the greatest manager of all time and all he needs to make his mark is a potful of gold to work in the transfer market.

Two moneybags clubs will be looking for a manager come the end of May so one assumes that Mr. Levy and Bruce Buck will be vying with one another to sign the great man.

Mr. Moyes will then take the Dick Wittingdon road, leaving behind the ever so 'umble, ever so grateful Uriah Heep F.C.

So no matter what about this debate, fellows, EFC will be looking for a new manager in the summer.

Amd I right?

I wonder who it will be?

 

[Neiler]

For sure. But Rooney was pure luck, and Lescott was good judgement/luck (in that ManC where willing to spend so much on him). However for picking out bargain gems there are few I know of like Moyes, that's for sure. That says as much about my knowledge of other managers' transfer dealings as anything tho, I'm sure Lambert, Rodgers etc haven't spent that much either and they've also got some pretty useful players. I guess my point is while there might not be anyone as good as Moyes in this department, there are people who are not too far off, who might bring more in other areas....

Im not sure what your saying here mate, on one hand your saying it was luck on the other you say Daveys the best at it.

I would be a long way of claiming Rodgers is the next messiah if im honest, he didnt build that team and like i said they just barely made it to 40 point despite their plaudits.

To be honest i have been more impressed with Lambert and Norwich to be honest.

Thats said i think its a different play ground at Everton, look what Moyes has done, CL, Euro Qualification, consistent top 8 finishes, cup finals all on less then 5 mill a year and still people want his blood.

We would eat Rodgers and Lambert for breakfeast - its a different job compleatley at Everton. Though i think Lambert will go far. They both have a long way to go to get out of the Paul Ince, Tony Mowbrary, Di Mateo, Ian Hollaway bracket for me.

 

[Goat]

Nope.

 

[Neiler]

This whole argument is moot, though, innit.

The Moyesiah is potentially the greatest manager of all time and all he needs to make his mark is a potful of gold to work in the transfer market.

Two moneybags clubs will be looking for a manager come the end of May so one assumes that Mr. Levy and Bruce Buck will be vying with one another to sign the great man.

Mr. Moyes will then take the Dick Wittingdon road, leaving behind the ever so 'umble, ever so grateful Uriah Heep F.C.

So no matter what about this debate, fellows, EFC will be looking for a new manager in the summer.

Amd I right?

I wonder who it will be?

Stranger things have happened then the Spurs thing mate, he wasnt a kick in the arse from Villa either - though he saw the clouds.

Id go Owen Coyle myself, though i like Paul Lambert, would bring Big Joe back as a steadying hand over one of the two as well.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

What about Howard Kendall then lads?

Is he a good manager because of what he done in his first spell or is he a ****e manager because of his record in his second and third spells?

Cause that seems to be purely how managers are judged. Of course the serious answer would be he is a good manager and he proved that first time but why didn't he repeat that success second time if he was that good?

Because there are numerous other factors at play, same ones which gave Moyes the chance to prove hsi worth and why Martinez (and other managers) aren't neccesarily ****e just because they're not achieving exactly the same as Moyes at different clubs and doesn't mean that if given the same chance as Moyes wouldn't be as succesful.

 

[Goat]

Stranger things have happened then the Spurs thing mate, he wasnt a kick in the arse from Villa either - though he saw the clouds.

Id go Owen Coyle myself, though i like Paul Lambert, would bring Big Joe back as a steadying hand over one of the two as well.

LOLOLOLOL

 

[Neiler]

LOLOLOLOL

I would you know mate, he knows his football, i rate the lid.