Today’s Football 2020/21 Season

Nymzee · December 1, 2020

TheBigIguana said:
Yeah I'm saying that players can learn to try and block things without putting their arms out. I don't care if it is "natural," I think football has spent a long time being a bit too lenient on handball and an attempt to reign that in wasn't the end of the world even if it was made to seem that way by Gary Lineker and Steve Bruce.

You're telling players that have played the same way since they were kids to magically re-learn how to defend though and it's not that simple. Lots of it is down to muscle memory, lots down to instinct.

It's why (slightly off-topic) I didn't blame Godfrey for that offside at the weekend because it's just a natural instinct in the moment to go for that header.

TheBigIguana · December 1, 2020

Nymzee said:
You're telling players that have played the same way since they were kids to magically re-learn how to defend though and it's not that simple. Lots of it is down to muscle memory, lots down to instinct.

It's why (slightly off-topic) I didn't blame Godfrey for that offside at the weekend because it's just a natural instinct in the moment to go for that header.

Yeah and I think they can do it. I mean they could adapt to not passing it back to the goalie to pick up all the time right? I assume in the 30s they did ok learning how to play when offside changed too.

I also think a lot of these "unintentional" handballs are a lot more intentional than people talk about. As in the defenders know just how wide they can make themselves to block things and have the ref not want to make an assumption. They could easily stop that.

Nymzee · December 1, 2020

TheBigIguana said:
Yeah and I think they can do it. I mean they could adapt to not passing it back to the goalie to pick up all the time right? I assume in the 30s they did ok learning how to play when offside changed too.

I also think a lot of these "unintentional" handballs are a lot more intentional than people talk about. As in the defenders know just how wide they can make themselves to block things and have the ref not want to make an assumption. They could easily stop that.

I don't see passbacks as equal since it's just a game rule not changing your body behaviour. They are going to have to change the way they defend but expecting it straight away isn't right.

ForeverBlue92 · December 1, 2020

TheBigIguana said:
Offside has always been offside even if it is just a millimeter.

But it hasn't as referees can not see by a millimeter - and VAR was never sold to the English clubs as punishing offsides by a millimeter - it was sold as helping to prevent "clear and obvious errors".

A pubic hair offside or a player penalised for pointing where he wants a pass to go isnt clear and obvious, isnt giving an attacker any advantage and isnt what English football signed up for.

To argue that you would be happy seeing Richarlison flagged offside for bloody pointing at James where he wants the ball to be played to is absolutely bonkers and a reason as to why I mentioned earlier if you went to the games and paid your hard earned money to see that you would rightfully be furious.

TheBigIguana · December 1, 2020

Nymzee said:
I don't see passbacks as equal since it's just a game rule not changing your body behaviour. They are going to have to change the way they defend but expecting it straight away isn't right.

I didn't expect it straight away but if we kept the rule changes I'm pretty sure by season's end the handballs would have stopped.

I think a similar argument could be made to defenders grappling players. By the laws it isn't allowed at all and they've just learned to do it constantly. Enforcing it would cause issues initially but eventually they'd stop doing it.

TheBigIguana · December 1, 2020

ForeverBlue92 said:
But it hasn't as referees can not see by a millimeter - and VAR was never sold to the English clubs as punishing offsides by a millimeter - it was sold as helping to prevent "clear and obvious errors".

A pubic hair offside or a player penalised for pointing where he wants a pass to go isnt clear and obvious, isnt giving an attacker any advantage and isnt what English football signed up for.

To argue that you would be happy seeing Richarlison flagged offside for bloody pointing at James where he wants the ball to be played to is absolutely bonkers and a reason as to why I mentioned earlier if you went to the games and paid your hard earned money to see that you would rightfully be furious.

I'm happy to see the rules enforced. In the past the linesman was refereeing to what he could see and that meant tight calls were often just a complete guess. I'm not happy with having that as the system to be perfectly honest when we can do something else. Tennis seems to have no problem with millimeters. I'm not in tennis circles but I've never heard someone on TV at Wimbledon complaining that the game was ruined because a ball was barely in and the call got overturned.

I'm sure you'll somehow tell me this is different, but it really isn't. If you want players to not be millimeters off and called off then you have to change the rule, not get rid of VAR. The real problem is the rules were written for a game without replay and need to be adjusted for one that has it. But getting rid of replay and allowing actually terrible calls to stand, Fulham not being given a penalty originally yesterday is the most recent example, isn't a good system either.

ForeverBlue92 · December 1, 2020

TheBigIguana said:
I'm happy to see the rules enforced. In the past the linesman was refereeing to what he could see and that meant tight calls were often just a complete guess. I'm not happy with having that as the system to be perfectly honest when we can do something else. Tennis seems to have no problem with millimeters. I'm not in tennis circles but I've never heard someone on TV at Wimbledon complaining that the game was ruined because a ball was barely in and the call got overturned.

I'm sure you'll somehow tell me this is different, but it really isn't. If you want players to not be millimeters off and called off then you have to change the rule, not get rid of VAR. The real problem is the rules were written for a game without replay and need to be adjusted for one that has it. But getting rid of replay and allowing actually terrible calls to stand, Fulham not being given a penalty originally yesterday is the most recent example, isn't a good system either.

No one is arguing with VAR - they are arguing with how its used.

Again we were lied to - english clubs wouldn't have agreed to its introduction in its current format thats the part you're not understanding.

A millimetre isnt clear and obvious and your example of tennis is more relevant to goal line technology than it is to a player being able to time their run by a millimetre.

Can you time your run/steps by a millimetre? If not I hope Biden over there doesnt make some new wacky law punishing how many millimetres you're allowed to walk per gallop otherwise you'll be in the gulag in no time.

Sounds crazy doesnt it? So why apply it to the greatest sport in the world and ruin something for the sake of being zaney hip.

roydo · December 1, 2020

ForeverBlue92 said:
No one is arguing with VAR - they are arguing with how its used.

Again we were lied to - english clubs wouldn't have agreed to its introduction in its current format thats the part you're not understanding.

A millimetre isnt clear and obvious and your example of tennis is more relevant to goal line technology than it is to a player being able to time their run by a millimetre.

Can you time your run/steps by a millimetre? If not I hope Biden over there doesnt make some new wacky law punishing how many millimetres you're allowed to walk per gallop otherwise you'll be in the gulag in no time.

Sounds crazy doesnt it? So why apply it to the greatest sport in the world and ruin something for the sake of being zaney hip.

Just adapt an "Umpires Call" rule. Like in cricket.

If ref misses a howler, gets sorted. If ref/linno misses a ridiculous "offside", let it go.

If ref/linno calls a ridiculous offside, and the armpit is confirmed by VAR, let it stand.

TheBigIguana · December 1, 2020

ForeverBlue92 said:
No one is arguing with VAR - they are arguing with how its used.

Again we were lied to - english clubs wouldn't have agreed to its introduction in its current format thats the part you're not understanding.

A millimetre isnt clear and obvious and your example of tennis is more relevant to goal line technology than it is to a player being able to time their run by a millimetre.

Can you time your run/steps by a millimetre? If not I hope Biden over there doesnt make some new wacky law punishing how many millimetres you're allowed to walk per gallop otherwise you'll be in the gulag in no time.

Sounds crazy doesnt it? So why apply it to the greatest sport in the world and ruin something for the sake of being zaney hip.

The thing is offside is exactly like a goal. There is a line and if you are over the line you are offside. Goals there is a line and if the ball is over it is a goal. Same technology too.

roydo said:
Just adapt an "Umpires Call" rule. Like in cricket.

If ref misses a howler, gets sorted. If ref/linno misses a ridiculous "offside", let it go.

If ref/linno calls a ridiculous offside, and the armpit is confirmed by VAR, let it stand.

This is what I mean when I say the rule needs to be rewritten. As it is right now it is either offside or not. If you want to introduce some kind of margin of error that has to be put into the laws.

ForeverBlue92 · December 1, 2020

TheBigIguana said:
The thing is offside is exactly like a goal. There is a line and if you are over the line you are offside. Goals there is a line and if the ball is over it is a goal. Same technology too.

This is what I mean when I say the rule needs to be rewritten. As it is right now it is either offside or not. If you want to introduce some kind of margin of error that has to be put into the laws.

The difference is massive - a football is an object whereas a player (to be offside) is a living person.

I get what you are trying to say about the law needing to be amended to suit to VAR - my point is when VAR was introduced it was introduced on the basis of getting involved to pick up clear and obvious errors that the refs have missed.

A millimetre offside isnt clear and obvious therefore VAR shouldn't be checking 10 different angles and lines for 5 minutes looking for the smallest reason to not give a goal - that was never in the brochure when the English clubs voted on introducing it thats my point.

TheBigIguana · December 1, 2020

ForeverBlue92 said:
The difference is massive - a football is an object whereas a player (to be offside) is a living person.

I get what you are trying to say about the law needing to be amended to suit to VAR - my point is when VAR was introduced it was introduced on the basis of getting involved to pick up clear and obvious errors that the refs have missed.

A millimetre offside isnt clear and obvious therefore VAR shouldn't be checking 10 different angles and lines for 5 minutes looking for the smallest reason to not give a goal - that was never in the brochure when the English clubs voted on introducing it thats my point.

I'm pretty sure, and I could be wrong but I remember this being an issue before, that the clear and obvious was never meant for offside. It's kind of a nothing argument if that's the case.