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Today's football.

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mellowblue said:
Respect JD but I am wary of a Europa Spot - it detracts from other goals..however I would be made up if we did that in RM's first season with us - Cl 4th or Europa 5th is what we should aim at - Fingers crossed for our great club ..
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I miss European football. I just want it back. We can get 4th, but it's going to be a fight with Spurs and the RS, and we could be looking at 4th or 6th on the last day of the year. I'd like to make sure that we get rewarded no matter what.
 
I think the thing with Moyes is he seems steadfast in his approach to the game. The way the game is played, tactics, formations etc is constantly evolving and Moyes's philosophy is becoming increasingly outdated.

At a team like ourselves when we were struggling in the league, his ideas/game plan worked for us, it doesn't in 2014 at a club like United. If Moyes is not prepared to accept his ideology doesn't fit at United quick he will find himself forever managing clubs at the lower end of the Premier league/Championship before he knows it
 
Tubey said:
I've just said he's a world class director of football, which is exactly what he is - worked on a shoestring budget to bring very good players to the club. He never managed them effectively though in my view.

He's never proven his managerial ability, he's just proven consistently that he's a genius in the transfer market. A manager in any occupation requires a different skillset to a purchaser.
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He took a team who had finished 15th and had them 7th in the league after his first season in charge. He then had what proved to be a blip before finishing 4th with a team of very little real quality.

He bottled it on the big occasions when trophies were at stake and he didn't win the really tough away games, but for the majority of the time he managed the team well. You're sniffing massive amounts of glue to suggest otherwise.
 

UTD went and got the fella because he reminded them in some small way of Fergie way back when. They should have been thinking of their peers in Europe and the trends in the way the game is being played. They should have been thinking about what football would be like in the next 5-10 years and who would be best placed to take them there. They won't sack him though because 'it's not the Man Utd way', although the only question is whether or not he's the right man for the job, and he clearly isn't.

I'm delighted for them and him because of the sneaky way they went about it and their behaviour since.
 
And welcome to Episode 10 of the Series "What next for Manchester United and David Moyes" and I'm joined by three former footballers who will chew over the bones - firstly England's Jamie Carragher (17 years at Liverpool), secondly another Anfield favourite in Jamie Redknapp and finally former manager Graeme Souness.. Gentlemen..

Gentlemen - stop guffawing and join us in the discussion...
Viewers, we'll be right back after a short break.
 
Brennan said:
He took a team who had finished 15th and had them 7th in the league after his first season in charge. He then had what proved to be a blip before finishing 4th with a team of very little real quality.

He bottled it on the big occasions when trophies were at stake and he didn't win the really tough away games, but for the majority of the time he managed the team well. You're sniffing massive amounts of glue to suggest otherwise.
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My definition of manager is different to yours. I define it as having the ability to effectively manage what you have - I don't think Moyes has ever done that to the maximum of what a manager could.

His performance at United and his last five years here suggest that's the case. His first five years here saw him bring in quality players who raised the overall bar in terms of footballing ability.

If David Moyes was a competent manager, he wouldn't be taking a title winning team and decimating it all over the shop right now.

He's a remarkable worker of the transfer market, arguably the best in world football, but his weaknesses have been glaring for a long time and we're seeing them amplified now, because his strengths aren't necessarily required at Manchester United.

I'm not "sniffing glue" by pointing out how he consistently under-utilises talent at his disposal, and that's pretty much the definition of a poor manager. Bringing in quality players is the definition of a great director of football.
 

Tubey said:
My definition of manager is different to yours. I define it as having the ability to effectively manage what you have - I don't think Moyes has ever done that to the maximum of what a manager could.

His performance at United and his last five years here suggest that's the case. His first five years here saw him bring in quality players who raised the overall bar in terms of footballing ability.

If David Moyes was a competent manager, he wouldn't be taking a title winning team and decimating it all over the shop right now.

He's a remarkable worker of the transfer market, arguably the best in world football, but his weaknesses have been glaring for a long time and we're seeing them amplified now, because his strengths aren't necessarily required at Manchester United.

I'm not "sniffing glue" by pointing out how he consistently under-utilises talent at his disposal, and that's pretty much the definition of a poor manager. Bringing in quality players is the definition of a great director of football.
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He was employed as manager for more than ten years Tubey. Thats the only definition needed.

You said he consistently under-utilised the talent at his disposal. Was he under achieving when he got our team to 7th in 2003, 4th in 2005, 6th in 2007, and 5th in 2008 ?
 
Brennan said:
He was employed as manager for more than ten years Tubey. Thats the only definition needed.
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That's not a definition, it's a statement. It just means he was so good at bringing players in that his overall performance at Everton was good enough to justify his tenure - at least for the first eight years anyway. The Premier League has different tiers and Moyes' biggest success was to take us out of the lower tier and get us into the higher tier based on his scouting talent. But arguing that he was an effective manager of that talent when he had it in the higher tier is to blatantly ignore his track record over the latter years here IMO.
 
Brennan said:
You said he consistently under-utilised the talent at his disposal. Was he under achieving when he got our team to 7th in 2003, 4th in 2005, 6th in 2007, and 5th in 2008 ?
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The talent he brought in was so obviously better than what we had and the others around us had that we became flat track bullies of our rivals and it was almost a case of quality alone elevating us above our rivals. Look at United now - they're ultra gash, but they still have the core quality to comfortably remain in the top ten.

Managing, though, is about taking the talent once you have it and getting them to perform above and beyond. Alex Ferguson did that incredibly well, as do other genuinely brilliant managers in that bracket, but Moyes can't do that. The job he's doing at United now could be done by many mediocre managers.

What is critical is the job he did after 2008. I agree he was fantastic in getting us from the lower half of the league to consistent top half, as he raised the squad quality bar. After 2008, he fell every time his managerial skill was required to put rivals to the sword. Yes, you can argue he wasn't backed by the board, but it's a selective memory indeed if we ignore how often he bottled it and tactically committed suicide because he simply wasn't that good of an actual manager when match day came about.
 
"Director Of Football" The very fact that tubey has constantly been against Moyes' preferred playing style and tactics since the day he first posted, makes that a bit of an oxymoron!

Who was the last successful director of football to be a success in the prem? Oh, yeah, there hasn't really been a successful appointment of that nature in this league.....
 

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