Tom Cleverley

Whistlin' Dixie · December 23, 2015

orly said:
I cannot believe this is possible, but Ostosh is a far, far superior in every department (bar female partner) to Cleverly.

Gibbo4 · December 23, 2015

He and the team haven't done particularly well since he's been in CM. People are right that it appears that Barkley has been brought deeper to give Cleverley licence to push forward more (the jury is out on if this is particularly +ve or -ve to Barkley/the team). In fairness fast pass and move is something Cleverley can do, but ultimately it hasn't really amounted to anything substantial and at times we have ended up looking like headless, out of position chickens, desperately chasing down the opposition. Cleverley can play quick balls round corners and run around a lot (fading badly second half), but what I would say to people is don't just look at the player's individual performance (which can appear to be good, though was abysmal last game), look also at their impact on the team shape, patterns of play and the other players around them. I personally would go with Cleverley as a rotation player on the left, possibly as a backup for the other two attacking midfield berths as well.

Also a side note to people saying Gibson isn't fit. Gibson has been on the bench for the last 3 months since 19th of September. If not now, when? And if never, what's the point of even being on the bench. Put someone there who you might play.

Besic is also back on the bench so must be just about ready to be given a go soon.

mlyons · December 23, 2015

Gibbo4 said:
He and the team haven't done particularly well since he's been in CM. People are right that it appears that Barkley has been brought deeper to give Cleverley licence to push forward more (the jury is out on if this is particularly +ve or -ve to Barkley/the team).

Barkley was brought deeper well before Cleverley came back into the side. McCarthy had been playing well ahead of Barry (in a 4-1-2-3 instead of a 4-2-3-1, if you like that kind of formation talk) for a few matches before he was injured against Bournemouth.

Azzurri · December 23, 2015

He's been good for us.

He's energetic, tidy and quite brave with his runs. If you were expecting someone who'll skin 5 players and bang one in the top corner that's your fault I'm afraid.

Gibbo4 · December 23, 2015

mlyons said:
Barkley was brought deeper well before Cleverley came back into the side. McCarthy had been playing well ahead of Barry (in a 4-1-2-3 instead of a 4-2-3-1, if you like that kind of formation talk) for a few matches before he was injured against Bournemouth.

You're not wrong. This has continued a bit more though since. Cleverley slightly further ahead of where McCarthy was and Barkley slightly further back than where he was.

mlyons · December 23, 2015

Gibbo4 said:
You're not wrong. This has continued a bit more though since. Cleverley slightly further ahead of where McCarthy was and Barkley slightly further back than where he was.

I think that's just because Cleverley is more inclined to push forward than McCarthy. I'm sure Martinez would have liked McCarthy to play in the positions that Cleverley has, and would have expected Barkley to come a little deeper to compensate, but McCarthy just doesn't naturally look to make forward runs.

Zatara · December 23, 2015

Its quite an interesting topic.. @Gibbo4 is precisely right about Cleverley's affect on the team play rather than watching him alone.

Its important to note that this type of player needs experience of playing in a team due to the quick passes and vision over short distances (like pienaar) and has only been with us a short time -- also as was highlighted, he hasnt played on the left side with Baines yet only Galloway who was much more defensive and inexperienced.

I fall into the trap of looking at the future more than the present. But, in my opinion if you wipe out Besic/Barry/Osman/Gibson then longer term have Barkley/McCarthy/Cleverley its clear to me that hes not going to be a first choice starter mainly because we would either need:

A-- Barkley (AM) McCarthy (DM)
Box to box player needed

B-- Barkley (CM) McCarthy (DM)
"Number 10" needed

C-- Barkley (AM) McCarthy (CM)
Defensive midfielder needed.

Obviously Cleverley isnt a defensive midfielder or a box-to-box player and so would only be suitable for "B" which he's not going to be good enough if we continue to improve and develop.

That being said, he's an excellent squad player to have as he can play anywhere in midfield + we need to see how he does on the left with Baines and possibly Garbutt.

Chegsy · December 23, 2015

Think he has done okay. I mentioned in one of the match threads that we look more attacking when he plays. I am also not a fan of the Barry/McCarthy duo, particularly in home games against weaker opposition.

Fresh Prince of Belle Val · December 23, 2015

What's our best midfield trio?
1. Barry, Cleverley, Barkley
2. McCarthy, Cleverley, Barkley
3. Barry, McCarthy, Barkley
4. Something else(state what)

sportbillyblue · December 23, 2015

Fresh Prince of Belle Val said:
What's our best midfield trio?
1. Barry, Cleverley, Barkley
2. McCarthy, Cleverley, Barkley
3. Barry, McCarthy, Barkley
4. Something else(state what)

3 you can't leave Barry out of the midfield based on the season to date.

I'd also like to see Besic given a fair crack of the whip in a Barry, Barkley, Besic trio

Zatara · December 24, 2015

The best players should be in their natural positions .

Firstly i would have McCarthy in defensive midfield. None of this centre midfield box to box malarkey for him (unless Martinez is doing it to improve his all round game)...

I would then look at Barkley and see whether he should be in attacking midfield or deeper (where he has been recently and possibly played there to improve his all round game).

Once McCarthy and Barkley are there on paper its a case of adding in an attacking midfielder (if Barkley is in central midfield) or a central midfielder (if Barkley is in attacking midfield).

For both positions you need mobility and of the below:
Osman (out of contract in summer)
Gibson (out of contract in summer)
Pienaar (out of contract in summer)
Besic
Barry
Cleverley

I think until we sign a left midfielder Cleverley should play there. That really leaves Besic or Barry and we know Barry isnt mobile and is in DM and cant be a CM. We also know Besic isnt getting games...for whatever reason.

For now i think we are short of a CM player next season depending on Barkley it should be:

DM -- McCarthy / Besic (maybe Ledson)
CM --
AM -- Barkley / Cleverley

So to answer the question, Cleverley will get games now but we dont look good as a unit with him and Barry nor does it help playing McCarthy out of position just because Barry is having a good season individually.

Cleverley is a great signing as a good player who can fill several roles but we clearly need a permanent Centre midfielder brought in.

Until then i dont particularly rate any of the options.

Fresh Prince of Belle Val said:
What's our best midfield trio?
1. Barry, Cleverley, Barkley
2. McCarthy, Cleverley, Barkley
3. Barry, McCarthy, Barkley
4. Something else(state what)

Zatara · December 24, 2015

You cant leave McCarthy out...hes top notch.

Barry may be having a good season as an individual but i cant see how he benefits the team more than McCarthy as hes so slow...think we would benefit having Besic there in DM even if alongside Barry for now just to add some mobility.

sportbillyblue said:
3 you can't leave Barry out of the midfield based on the season to date.

I'd also like to see Besic given a fair crack of the whip in a Barry, Barkley, Besic trio

smileychap · December 25, 2015

Zatara said:
Its quite an interesting topic.. @Gibbo4 is precisely right about Cleverley's affect on the team play rather than watching him alone.

Its important to note that this type of player needs experience of playing in a team due to the quick passes and vision over short distances (like pienaar) and has only been with us a short time -- also as was highlighted, he hasnt played on the left side with Baines yet only Galloway who was much more defensive and inexperienced.

I fall into the trap of looking at the future more than the present. But, in my opinion if you wipe out Besic/Barry/Osman/Gibson then longer term have Barkley/McCarthy/Cleverley its clear to me that hes not going to be a first choice starter mainly because we would either need:

A-- Barkley (AM) McCarthy (DM)
Box to box player needed

B-- Barkley (CM) McCarthy (DM)
"Number 10" needed

C-- Barkley (AM) McCarthy (CM)
Defensive midfielder needed.

Obviously Cleverley isnt a defensive midfielder or a box-to-box player and so would only be suitable for "B" which he's not going to be good enough if we continue to improve and develop.

That being said, he's an excellent squad player to have as he can play anywhere in midfield + we need to see how he does on the left with Baines and possibly Garbutt.

Great post. Basically nails it for me! What's the story with Garbutt n Galloway? The latter surely has to be find of the season, no?

Zatara · December 26, 2015

I think Galloway's brilliant. End of last season he got 2 games at left back and it set him up really well to come in for baines this season.

This season he's got the experience now and hopefully will get a couple of games at CB...then next season we could see him pushing for a place there.

I think the squad is unbalanced. Baines, Garbutt and Coleman are not Martinez signings and even if they are good players we dont know if they fit what he wants...do we buy another Deulofeu on the left or play Cleverley there?

If so then Baines should do fine with Cleverley but if an attacking winger perhaps Galloway may be better than Baines at left back...

Its really hard to tell what Martinez wants as he needs 2 midfielders at LW and CM which will dictate how we play and then this will also impact how the full backs play.

Do we need defensive minded or attacking full backs...?

Cleverley you cant fault as a squad player next season.

smileychap said:
Great post. Basically nails it for me! What's the story with Garbutt n Galloway? The latter surely has to be find of the season, no?

royvernon39 · December 26, 2015

Zatara said:
Once McCarthy and Barkley are there on paper its a case of adding in an attacking midfielder (if Barkley is in central midfield) or a central midfielder (if Barkley is in attacking midfield).

I agree. I just hope that attacker is top notch and my hope, unrealistic as it might be, is that we sign that bloke from Dynamo Kiev. Cleverley was a fine catch on a free but I just hope we can get a classier act. Flog Naismith and Miralles and we can nearly afford him.

Year after year, it gets exasperating to see that we are just one or two players away from really going for it. A top attacking midfielder alongside Barkley would be great.